Phantomfixer
Practically Family
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"would the paying public really guess that your tunic colour was slightly off?"
99.9 would not notice nor care
99.9 would not notice nor care
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Aloofness in Re-enactment.
- Thread starter Mr Lilleythorpe
- Start date
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- 10,181
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But that's not the standard. Many visitors to events know their ****. There's a nice reasonable level. Each group sets it's own. Find one that suits you.
Phantomfixer
Practically Family
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- 819
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- Mid East coast USA
Yep there are folks who show up at the event, and they do know their stuff. When I reenacted WWII AAC, I did it to help educate the public to what the guys did, and of course display my collection. It was always great to have a vet come up and say how realistic the unit looked or "hey, I had one of those...". It was great talking to the vets. I did a lot of solo work at Dover AFB during retiree appriciation day. It was an annual thing to help vets understand what government aid was available to them.. I set up a WWII display. I talked to a lot of WWII guys good stuff...
anyway the point. The guy who comes to a show/display and says my flight suit is a shade off, I don't bother with, he is gonna knock me no matter what I do.
Do it for the vets and the general public, they need to know, the younger crowds specifically, there will always be the guy telling ya "you have too many stars on your button for the shirt to be a WWII shirt".
If you don't find a group that you like, go solo, a group will pick you up when they see your enthusiasm...
Good luck
anyway the point. The guy who comes to a show/display and says my flight suit is a shade off, I don't bother with, he is gonna knock me no matter what I do.
Do it for the vets and the general public, they need to know, the younger crowds specifically, there will always be the guy telling ya "you have too many stars on your button for the shirt to be a WWII shirt".
If you don't find a group that you like, go solo, a group will pick you up when they see your enthusiasm...
Good luck
In picking a group it is important to find one because there are several types of groups here are a few types:
Active third person interpretation to educate the public (camp set up as it would have been)
Passive third person to educate the public (camp set up with items as a display in ways that they would not be stored in period)
Active first person (communicating with the public)
Passive first person (talking only to people in the unit)
It is best to get to know people before you think reenactors are a certain type because there are many types of units and styles for handling the public as well as how people get along with each other.
Active third person interpretation to educate the public (camp set up as it would have been)
Passive third person to educate the public (camp set up with items as a display in ways that they would not be stored in period)
Active first person (communicating with the public)
Passive first person (talking only to people in the unit)
It is best to get to know people before you think reenactors are a certain type because there are many types of units and styles for handling the public as well as how people get along with each other.
filfoster
One Too Many
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- 1,329
I buy a lot of kit and unforms for display from reenactor vendors and have caught on that there are varying degrees of fideltiy/fanatacism to 'authenticity' among reenactors of every era. Rollin, who is the proprietor of www.atthefront.com has a trove of very funny rants on this subject. Nothing funnier than the experts who persist in their opinions in the face of documented exceptions. It can be a ruthless sub-culture!
1961MJS
My Mail is Forwarded Here
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Hi
I own several pair of Rollin's khaki pants and they're great. I used to be on a now defunct militaria forum and they made Rollin seem sickeningly sweet. They had some excellent pictures of redneck Nazi's, Japanese Nazi's, 450 pound Nazi paratroopers complete with extremely snide comments. The Mullet Nazi was one of my favorites.
Later
When I cannot physically copy a person in my portrayal I will include a description of how I differ from the original men. The fact that I would have been much more tanned and thinner as well as partially dehydrated is information that I volunteer as part of the conversation when I am talking. It really surprised me how many conversations that can start when the visitor realizes that it is OK to ask how things have changed over the years.
I have noticed that most reenactors who are sticklers for insignia within a fraction of a hairwidth or that the cloth being exact colors are often folks who do not have much real military experience and do not realize the problems of shoddy contractors or wear and fading. Changes in regulation and old uniforms can add quite an interesting twist in portrayal.
I have noticed that most reenactors who are sticklers for insignia within a fraction of a hairwidth or that the cloth being exact colors are often folks who do not have much real military experience and do not realize the problems of shoddy contractors or wear and fading. Changes in regulation and old uniforms can add quite an interesting twist in portrayal.
1961MJS
My Mail is Forwarded Here
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Hi
I reenacted Confederate army for a while. According to my fearless leader, some of the guys on "our side" were so gung ho that they even starved themselves for a few months before 1865 battle reenactments. I'm NOT quite that gung-ho.
My Dad was in the 17th Weather Squadron in the South Pacific for most of the war. He wore about half Marine Uniform (white t-shirts and Marine Pith Helmet). The USAAC had their own pith helmets, just not on HIS island. The USAAC also had brown t-shirts but Dad liked the white apparently. I still have his dress uniform jacket, two of the brown wool shirts, his HBT "flight jacket", and his boots. He was still wearing his boots for working outdoors until the 1990's. No patches, the medals (all I was there) were never on his dress uniform. He wore khaki uniform cut-offs a white t-shirt, and the pith helmet off duty and khaki's while on duty.
Later
I reenacted Confederate army for a while. According to my fearless leader, some of the guys on "our side" were so gung ho that they even starved themselves for a few months before 1865 battle reenactments. I'm NOT quite that gung-ho.
My Dad was in the 17th Weather Squadron in the South Pacific for most of the war. He wore about half Marine Uniform (white t-shirts and Marine Pith Helmet). The USAAC had their own pith helmets, just not on HIS island. The USAAC also had brown t-shirts but Dad liked the white apparently. I still have his dress uniform jacket, two of the brown wool shirts, his HBT "flight jacket", and his boots. He was still wearing his boots for working outdoors until the 1990's. No patches, the medals (all I was there) were never on his dress uniform. He wore khaki uniform cut-offs a white t-shirt, and the pith helmet off duty and khaki's while on duty.
Later
Edward
Bartender
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What in particular distinguishes those? Do you mean by era, or was there a specific issue for duty over there? Somewhere I have a pair of (commercial repro) "Northern Ireland" gloves - always wondered exactly how that appellation came about. Was it as simple as that was, at a time, the British Army's primary "combat zone" (for want of a better was of putting it....)? I love those gloves, really practical. Not wholly dissimilar in design to USAAF A10 gloves, except black, thicker lining, and the padded knuckles. The best ones were the older pattern with the padding on the back of the fingers too. Actually remember seeing squaddies wearing those on patrol back in the late Seventies / early Eighties. Friend who was in the RAF really missed his when they were replaced (with the Soldier 2000 system, I think?), as he reckoned they were far better with those knit cuffs.
Within reason.... I've moved in Rocky Horror circles that would make even the most farbe re-enactor look like they'd just raided the dressing up box in terms of being bitter and uncompromising about other people's gear (the phrase "I can't tell you where I bought this, as then you'd have one too and I would lose my edge in costume competitions...." was known in some corners....), which always seemed to be missing the point, somehow. I do think it is important with a uniform, if you are setting yourself up as living history / whatever to educate or entertain (especially paying) public punters, to be as accurate as possible, however kiwilrdg makes an important point about variations in colour and other reasons as to why in an active theatre of war there would be certain things that were "off-book". I do lean to the view that some re-enactors should be a little less obsessed with their kit and be a little more realistic about what their age and body-type realistically "works" for. I'm certainly in no way as thin or as fit as the average WW2 Tommy, and I'm too old to play a conscript now (at least early war; and if I hadn't left my point of geographical origin I would not have been conscripted anyhow). I'd look even more ridiculous playing a BoB pilot (I'm 38 - as near mid forties as makes no damn difference, and bald). I fancy a go at Home Guard, though. That said, a lot does depend on what you're trying to do - collecting and wearing for your own satisfaction is very different than setting yourself up as an accurate historical portrayal.
Somehow I'd find those much scarier than a wholly accurate portrayal. At least the guys who go for historical accuracy I look at and think, well, they're into the history. Wanting to wear a Nazi uniform now, and wear it as twenty-first century clothing..... questionable. (Full uniform and insignia, as distinct from a pair of black riding britches, or an unmarked Panzerwrap....
p51
One Too Many
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I have been re-enacting since the age of 5 and into WW2 re-enacting since I was 18 (I'm 42 now). These days I almost exclusively do display events only, having served in the real US Army (and relaizing that re-enactment tactics are very rarely based on any kind of reality).
I get the original thought in the first post but I have to say I see the flipside of this often. I'm in a very loose organization, the only WW2 re-enactment group that was ever endorsed by WW2 cartoonist Bill Mauldin (we have permission to use the characters and names in our group logo).
We get people all the time with downright comical impressions, people who show up with modern gear, hunting boots and all manners of stuff that wouldn't be good enough in the worst WW2 movie ever made. And almost all of them refuse to improve anything. We'll suggest more correct stuff but in the end, many of them want to stay as they are. They're not a little off, they're WAY off, not even close. And someone that far off from authenticity is not someone we want with us in a public setting as it makes us all look bad. We look the other way for minor stuff (eyeglasses from member who only show up with their vehicles, things like that) and I disagree with some of it, but I get there's a balance to be made if you want people to have fun. But when someone shows up with Carhart work clothes with modern GI patches sewn to them, a carbine with a 30round mag and metal handguards, a vietnam era helmet and camo hunting boots, well, when you suggest what would be correct and they proudly proclaim, "This is good enough," I have had to say, "well, not for us, it isn't."
I'm not saying the original poster is this type of person. i am suggesting maybe the group has seen their share of these types, as well, and don't want to fight that fight again.
Just a thought...
I get the original thought in the first post but I have to say I see the flipside of this often. I'm in a very loose organization, the only WW2 re-enactment group that was ever endorsed by WW2 cartoonist Bill Mauldin (we have permission to use the characters and names in our group logo).
We get people all the time with downright comical impressions, people who show up with modern gear, hunting boots and all manners of stuff that wouldn't be good enough in the worst WW2 movie ever made. And almost all of them refuse to improve anything. We'll suggest more correct stuff but in the end, many of them want to stay as they are. They're not a little off, they're WAY off, not even close. And someone that far off from authenticity is not someone we want with us in a public setting as it makes us all look bad. We look the other way for minor stuff (eyeglasses from member who only show up with their vehicles, things like that) and I disagree with some of it, but I get there's a balance to be made if you want people to have fun. But when someone shows up with Carhart work clothes with modern GI patches sewn to them, a carbine with a 30round mag and metal handguards, a vietnam era helmet and camo hunting boots, well, when you suggest what would be correct and they proudly proclaim, "This is good enough," I have had to say, "well, not for us, it isn't."
I'm not saying the original poster is this type of person. i am suggesting maybe the group has seen their share of these types, as well, and don't want to fight that fight again.
Just a thought...
Mr Lilleythorpe
New in Town
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We recently had an event. One of the other groups was of lesser gear requirements. It was obvious the difference between the two groups (both being the same country of origin). It made us "look good" for sure. I like that. But in the end, the weekend was a blast not because of the gear, but the people. Battles can be less forgiving for gear, but public appearances should be top-notch.
It's the way one goes about it. If you tell people up-front and help them achieve standards, it's easy. If you act like a pompous a$$, it ruins it and turns people off.
You're dealing with people. Most have no military background. I choose to help and motivate, not alienate new/potential members. That's how I was brought in, and I will always remember that.
It's the way one goes about it. If you tell people up-front and help them achieve standards, it's easy. If you act like a pompous a$$, it ruins it and turns people off.
You're dealing with people. Most have no military background. I choose to help and motivate, not alienate new/potential members. That's how I was brought in, and I will always remember that.
texan
New in Town
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- Houston, Texas
I spent 29 years in WWII reenacting and your comments really hit home.
"Aloofness" was one of the reasons I finally reached the proverbial 'here' and packed up my gear and left the hobby. I reckoned I spent somewhere near $30,000 on WWII uniforms, equipment and weapons; it was the aloofness and arrogance of the portly collector-reenactors that finally pushed me out of the hobby for good. Most WWII reenactors attend events to get away from the wife, girlfriend (or both) shoot blanks and throw back a few beers. There's nothing wrong with that; what you bumped into was the arrogant clique-ish groups that seem to run the organizations and events. Personally I could never stand these types as they bluster, award themselves medals and tack on Colonel's rank - never having served a day in anyone's army. They don't know an arrowhead formation from a 2-man fighting position but sit around the camp fire Saturday night smoking cigars trading "war stories" of bravery under blank fire.
Find another group to join. And if there are no units in your area, start one. If your not in shape, start working out s that you can present a proper, wartime impression. You'll find, over time, you'll attract like minded reenactors who will join you.
"Aloofness" was one of the reasons I finally reached the proverbial 'here' and packed up my gear and left the hobby. I reckoned I spent somewhere near $30,000 on WWII uniforms, equipment and weapons; it was the aloofness and arrogance of the portly collector-reenactors that finally pushed me out of the hobby for good. Most WWII reenactors attend events to get away from the wife, girlfriend (or both) shoot blanks and throw back a few beers. There's nothing wrong with that; what you bumped into was the arrogant clique-ish groups that seem to run the organizations and events. Personally I could never stand these types as they bluster, award themselves medals and tack on Colonel's rank - never having served a day in anyone's army. They don't know an arrowhead formation from a 2-man fighting position but sit around the camp fire Saturday night smoking cigars trading "war stories" of bravery under blank fire.
Find another group to join. And if there are no units in your area, start one. If your not in shape, start working out s that you can present a proper, wartime impression. You'll find, over time, you'll attract like minded reenactors who will join you.
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Yah, the prefect guys with all the gear that won't get dirty. Still live with their mothers I'd wager.
Hunter_aka_Scotty
One of the Regulars
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I have to throw in on a couple of points. I am a reenactor who does everything from English Civil War 1640's to WW2 and everything in between.
Veterans as a whole do not look down upon reenactors. Within my group, I am the lone individual who has NOT served in the armed forces. The head of our WW2 organization spent 2 tours of duty in Vietnam and 30 years in the US Marine Corps. I used to reenact American Civil War back in the 90's with a gentleman who was a 16 year old rifleman in the second wave that hit the Normandy Beaches, unfortunately he passed away some time ago. And many of our counter part US WW2 Reenactors within our organization are currently active!
As for historical authenticity I guess I am one of these snobs. However, I don't hold my standards to other people but my line of thinking is that if you are going to do it.... Do it right. It is a small effort to honor those that served and died to make sure your kit is as accurate to them as possible because the FACT is we can't ever get everything 100% right. So in the areas we can, we should! It is a small effort that goes a long way. Further those that can't be bothered to have a historically accurate kits no matter what period they do seems they cannot be bothered to do even a basic amount of research. If they can't do that, how can they be trusted to give an accurate impression or even pass along good information to the public?
I realize that this is just a hobby, and not every one is as concerned with details as others. My statements do not hold absolute truth in them. But those are my standards for myself. I once started reenacting with one of the worst most historically inaccurate kits imaginable. And I used to loath the "Hardcore" guys because of their attitude. But as I did more reading and research the thought came to me "What the HELL am I wearing??? I look nothing like these guys in the photographs!" those hardcore guys have it right! It was all a matter of time till I found a group who was willing to take any one who is willing to LEARN. To me, that is the key difference. Those that are always willing to learn and advance their kit or those who bury their heads in the sand and then there are those who make it into some sort of disrespectful circus side show, but that is their thing. I know plenty who do that and while I disagree with what they do.... I don't think them bad people and I would much rather be friends with them in hopes that they may be inspired and want to do more research and improve their historical impressions because the fact of the matter is we all have a mutual interest. History.
I don't know how clear my meaning is going to get across and I honestly intend no offense to any here.
Veterans as a whole do not look down upon reenactors. Within my group, I am the lone individual who has NOT served in the armed forces. The head of our WW2 organization spent 2 tours of duty in Vietnam and 30 years in the US Marine Corps. I used to reenact American Civil War back in the 90's with a gentleman who was a 16 year old rifleman in the second wave that hit the Normandy Beaches, unfortunately he passed away some time ago. And many of our counter part US WW2 Reenactors within our organization are currently active!
As for historical authenticity I guess I am one of these snobs. However, I don't hold my standards to other people but my line of thinking is that if you are going to do it.... Do it right. It is a small effort to honor those that served and died to make sure your kit is as accurate to them as possible because the FACT is we can't ever get everything 100% right. So in the areas we can, we should! It is a small effort that goes a long way. Further those that can't be bothered to have a historically accurate kits no matter what period they do seems they cannot be bothered to do even a basic amount of research. If they can't do that, how can they be trusted to give an accurate impression or even pass along good information to the public?
I realize that this is just a hobby, and not every one is as concerned with details as others. My statements do not hold absolute truth in them. But those are my standards for myself. I once started reenacting with one of the worst most historically inaccurate kits imaginable. And I used to loath the "Hardcore" guys because of their attitude. But as I did more reading and research the thought came to me "What the HELL am I wearing??? I look nothing like these guys in the photographs!" those hardcore guys have it right! It was all a matter of time till I found a group who was willing to take any one who is willing to LEARN. To me, that is the key difference. Those that are always willing to learn and advance their kit or those who bury their heads in the sand and then there are those who make it into some sort of disrespectful circus side show, but that is their thing. I know plenty who do that and while I disagree with what they do.... I don't think them bad people and I would much rather be friends with them in hopes that they may be inspired and want to do more research and improve their historical impressions because the fact of the matter is we all have a mutual interest. History.
I don't know how clear my meaning is going to get across and I honestly intend no offense to any here.
A couple of problems that I have seen from people that keeps them from being accepted:
If you go to a group's event be sure you contact them before showing up in garb, even if it is as a spectator. Your current impression might not match theirs.
Do not feel that you need to start out with any stripes. After a few years most guys would like to go back to the line anyway.
Ask them what is needed for basic kit.
Find out what their schedule is like at events. This might save you from 4 hours of drill when the public leaves.
Find out how much they work incedental items int their kit (cigarettes, pinups in camp, etc.)
Find out about food plan and other camp arrangements.
If you like the way the group sounds and they like the sounds of you it might be a good thing but:
Be sure you are at the event on-time or early.
Help set-up, or at least offer.
follow instructions and watch how the unit behaves around visitors.
Help break down at the end of the event.
When you find the right group you will start to feel at home at the first event. If you don't care for the group just take your toys and go home. It is their yard so they decide how to play. Just find another group but don't speak badly of the old group because you might find later that you really grow to like their style after all.
If you go to a group's event be sure you contact them before showing up in garb, even if it is as a spectator. Your current impression might not match theirs.
Do not feel that you need to start out with any stripes. After a few years most guys would like to go back to the line anyway.
Ask them what is needed for basic kit.
Find out what their schedule is like at events. This might save you from 4 hours of drill when the public leaves.
Find out how much they work incedental items int their kit (cigarettes, pinups in camp, etc.)
Find out about food plan and other camp arrangements.
If you like the way the group sounds and they like the sounds of you it might be a good thing but:
Be sure you are at the event on-time or early.
Help set-up, or at least offer.
follow instructions and watch how the unit behaves around visitors.
Help break down at the end of the event.
When you find the right group you will start to feel at home at the first event. If you don't care for the group just take your toys and go home. It is their yard so they decide how to play. Just find another group but don't speak badly of the old group because you might find later that you really grow to like their style after all.
Mr Lilleythorpe
New in Town
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I ran into one particular 'die-hard' who had a Captain's battledress from the Royal Signals, which was actually used in WWII, and was in such an appalling condition that it was tattered and threadbare.
I, on the other hand, had a period jacket and cap in good condition which were rare and good finds, and the rest of my kit is reproduction. He seemed to think that he looked far more authentic, but didn't seem to realise that uniforms issued at the time weren't actually 60 years old.
I, on the other hand, had a period jacket and cap in good condition which were rare and good finds, and the rest of my kit is reproduction. He seemed to think that he looked far more authentic, but didn't seem to realise that uniforms issued at the time weren't actually 60 years old.
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We're in the midst now of discussing a cold-weather jacket for our group. It's best to work with the group once you're in there to make decisions as a group, then nobody is surprised, hurt, or out good money.
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When I did the 125th of the American War Between the States, we had been doing battles from different years of the war. It was key to have an early war appearance for Manassas & a late war appearance for Appomattox. Some folks could only afford 1 Confederate uniform but butternuts wouldn't look right at Bull Run & fresh wools wouldn't go for Shiloh. Leather goods were okay but looking threadbare for the early battles was not accurate.
