Battledress - expanded

[BellyTank]

Not such a myth, as far as I know, it(or something similar)the KM used captured British Denim and also wool BD.
They also had their own, similar version of a work uniform, as you have illustrated.

There are a few famous photos of U-boat crew wearing British BD,
one of them (Fritz Julius Lemp, KM buttons replacing British)is in this first link:

http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum S...ides/Commander Fritz Julius Lemp U110-01.html

The second link (see pp23 of the book)will show you the German version.
Read the text.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ig...PmhrEF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

*Have a look also, at the cover of this (pdf) book for British BD, including trousers(albeit an illustration, from a photo)


B
T

 

[Smithy]

Not such a myth, as far as I know, it(or something similar)the KM used captured British Denim and also wool BD.
They also had their own, similar version of a work uniform, as you have illustrated.

There are a few famous photos of U-boat crew wearing British BD,
one of them (Fritz Julius Lemp, KM buttons replacing British)is in this first link:

http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum S...ides/Commander Fritz Julius Lemp U110-01.html

The second link (see pp23 of the book)will show you the German version.
Read the text.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ig...PmhrEF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

*Have a look also, at the cover of this (pdf) book for British BD, including trousers(albeit an illustration, from a photo)


B
T

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the whole U-boat crews wearing British Army BD a result of German forces capturing a large amount of British BD after the fall of France and the Low Countries? It was functional kit and with the U-boat service's fairly relaxed attitudes to operational dress it was adopted by early war U-boat crews.

 

[BellyTank]

Hi, Smithy- you're a cab.

That pdf book I linked (basically)says, that captured uniform was used because it was available and it resembled KM U-boot work cotton uniform. Hmmm... Kyckling or Ägg?

Upon reflection, I don't know about that book's facts.

But there are many famous photos showing u-boat Commanders/crew, sporting British BD, which can be recognised as such.


B
D

 

[Smithy]

Hi, Smithy- you're a cab.

You can probably call me one old boy, I've had a fair bit of the old joy juice tonight!

 

[Creeping Past]

The Kreigsmarine U-Boot canvas suit is a different item. Here is one. I'm sure you will see the different features as well as the different material.

And the long body...

 

[H.Johnson]

OK...I don't doubt that small amounts of denim BD were captured (and Commanders usually end up with such stuff), but surely for it to be as frequent an occurrence as I have seen implied, there would be many photographs of large numbers of soldiers of the British Expeditionary Force wearing denim BD before or after capture?

I've seen what purport to be British denim BD on U-Boot crews and, frankly, I'm not convinced. Blurred photos, similar garments and all that. Maybe its my eyes.

Surely if a significant number of sets of BD were to be acquired by the KM, the soldiers would have been shown wearing it before or after they were captured or evacuated? The 51st Highland Division, for instance, which was the largest unit captured entire (at St. Valery) is shown in BD serge (in Mike Chappell's books).

The only possibility I can think of is that since the denim BD set was intended to be worn over the BD serge it is possible that members of the BEF were wearing denim BD over their serge BD and abandoned it.

There is documented evidence of British and French materiel (Bren guns being a good example) being captured and reissued to German troops but, apart from the above possibility, it would seem to be a lot easier to abandon a machine gun than your jacket and trousers.

In short, I don't know.

 

[green papaya]

dry cleaning

I wouldnt wash or dry clean unless absolutely necessary!

I had a brand new USN wool pea coat that I had "dry cleaned" and it came back in worse condition than it was before cleaning! the dry cleaning machine actually damaged the liner and it looked worn with rub marks after the dry cleaning.

 

[Panache]

I completely forgot about the photo of me wearing it... I bought a pair of khakis to wear with it today. So, behold! My "flying legends" outfit (because I´m going to wear it in Duxford this weekend)

donCarlos,

If I may be so bold, I might suggest wearing your new jacket with suspenders instead of a belt.

To me the lines of the jacket (and you look great in it by the by) are spoiled by the belt peeking out from under the jacket's waist.

I just got a similiar style of jacket and really like it

Just a suggestion

Cheers

Jamie

 

[benstephens]

OK...I don't doubt that small amounts of denim BD were captured (and Commanders usually end up with such stuff), but surely for it to be as frequent an occurrence as I have seen implied, there would be many photographs of large numbers of soldiers of the British Expeditionary Force wearing denim BD before or after capture?

I've seen what purport to be British denim BD on U-Boot crews and, frankly, I'm not convinced. Blurred photos, similar garments and all that. Maybe its my eyes.

Surely if a significant number of sets of BD were to be acquired by the KM, the soldiers would have been shown wearing it before or after they were captured or evacuated? The 51st Highland Division, for instance, which was the largest unit captured entire (at St. Valery) is shown in BD serge (in Mike Chappell's books).

The only possibility I can think of is that since the denim BD set was intended to be worn over the BD serge it is possible that members of the BEF were wearing denim BD over their serge BD and abandoned it.

There is documented evidence of British and French materiel (Bren guns being a good example) being captured and reissued to German troops but, apart from the above possibility, it would seem to be a lot easier to abandon a machine gun than your jacket and trousers.

In short, I don't know.

I have often pondered this as well. All I could think was unit stores. In the end, denims especially early war were to be worn for fatique duties, so, it is possible if large amounts were with the BEF they would have left them in unit stores. However, i am still not wholly convinced either....

Ben

 

[BellyTank]

...In short, I don't know.

Well, you'd best tell all those U-Boot crew reenactors before they embarrass themselves too much.

H.Johnson and Mr. Ben, I am still skeptical of the "Dunkirk connection" too but there seems much mention of this situation in reference material and the wearing of British BD (both Denim and Wool) by U-boot crews is backed up by photos.


B
T

 

[MrBern]

I wouldnt wash or dry clean unless absolutely necessary!

I had a brand new USN wool pea coat that I had "dry cleaned" and it came back in worse condition than it was before cleaning! the dry cleaning machine actually damaged the liner and it looked worn with rub marks after the dry cleaning.

I periodically dry clean my Ike jackets to avoid moth hole development. No problems so far.
Once, I machine washed a pair of the matching wool trousers just to see if they could handle it. No problems, but I wouldnt do it with a favorite pair.

 

[benstephens]

Well, As I said, my thought is unit stores. In the end, look at the amoung of captured vehicles the Germans used after Dunkirk. I suspect large amount of stores were captures when you think what the RASC/ROAC divisional stores would have been like.

Kindest

Ben

 

[Cherry_Bombb]

I wouldnt wash or dry clean unless absolutely necessary!

I had a brand new USN wool pea coat that I had "dry cleaned" and it came back in worse condition than it was before cleaning! the dry cleaning machine actually damaged the liner and it looked worn with rub marks after the dry cleaning.

I've worked in the bridal industry for several years. On more than one occasion we had girls come in w/ grandma's or great-grandma's dress and we know right away it's been dry cleaned. Older fabrics don't hold up as well to dry cleaning. We have chemicals in our clothing nowadays that don't break down like the old ones do. What used to be considered good for fabrics to keep them from wearing out, we're finding is what ruins them in the long run. The heat and chemicals found in dry cleaning solutions can speed that up. Might not happen the first time, or the second. But down the road, you'll regret doing it.

I recommend what someone mentioned earlier in the post: cold water and an oxygenated cleaner (oxyclean or my personal fav for vintage- BIZ) is a great bet. Pour a half a cup into a bathtub of cold water (enough to cover your garment) and I let it soak overnight. Fibers that are dry can usually use that drink of water- helps them regain some of their moisture and flexibility. If taken to a dry cleaner, those same fibers can begin to break down. In the morning, rinse it out, lay flat to dry on a towel (hanging causes pressure on old seams). And Presto!


I have several of these BDUs and I love them! Of course I realize that they're meant for the gentlemen to wear, but I love mine! Both of them are Canadian- one from the 50's and one from the ?70's? Not sure- the label was lost. I wear them with everything from dress slacks and pencil skirts to jeans. Not that I expect you all to be wearing them with pencil skirts! But I do find them to dress up an outfit that would otherwise be casual.

 

[Smithy]

Well, As I said, my thought is unit stores. In the end, look at the amoung of captured vehicles the Germans used after Dunkirk. I suspect large amount of stores were captures when you think what the RASC/ROAC divisional stores would have been like.

Kindest

Ben

I tend to agree with Ben here. The BEF would have had enormous amounts of supplies with it in France. I think that these may have been captured. And lets be honest they were in an horrendous flap with the evacuation and left behind far more important pieces of equipment, so it follows that kit stores weren't the highest priority to take back to Britain.

 

[BellyTank]

I think that is pretty much the story that's always been in circulation.


B
T

 

[PuLpO]

So I finally found an army shop in Prague where they sell these garments, we usually call "battledress" (I don´t know if it is the right name). It looks like this:

It´s not really what I really wanted (german black panzer wrap tunic), but it´s good as well. I would buy it, but I don´t have a clue what to wear it with.

So I ask you, the experts, who surely have some experience with this - what would be suitable to wear this with? I don´t want to look like a reenactor, I would like it to look somewhat casual... I thought about brown fedora, maybe jeans? I really don´t know. Please, help me.

Its an Belgium PostWar Jacket have had the same Years ago

 

[Old Fogey UK]

A little aside on all this -
My father joined a Territorial Army batallion in 1936 - his boss at work was an officer in the TA and predicted all the young men in the office who joined up would get commissions when war came.
They were issued with Battledress early in 1939 but had to hand it in again when the war actually started because it was needed for BEF and they went back into the WW1-style uniform.
A footnote is that Dad got sent on an officer training course when the rest of the batallion ultimately went to France. Hence he missed the the June 1940 debacle - and was mightily pleased to do so ! I am too - I mightn't have been around otherwise.

 

[H.Johnson]

Around 6 million tons of stores of all kinds were abandoned after Operation Dynamo (according to Mike Chappell and other sources). That's not in doubt. What is in doubt is whether the pattern of denim overall in which U-Boot crew members are photographed (often much later in the war) were issued to the infantry divisions that made up the BEF.

There are two things that I think we need to know more about before we can make a judgement one way or the other.

First, there is some doubt about the timing of the issue of the 'second pattern' denim BD and the equipment of the BEF - the point being that the original pattern (hip length with a stand collar and low pockets) and the 'second pattern' (like the later 'austerity' BD) overlapped in service, the former going along with SD and the latter with BD. BD Serge was originally issued to 'part-time' soldiers (e.g. Territorial, etc.) while the 'professionals' (i.e. Regular Army) wore SD after the outbreak of war. As Mr. Fogey UK points out, there was a hasty arrangement to swap the regulars' SD for the 'part-timers'' BD Serge before they embarked for France. If (as seems likely) the BEF regulars were originally issued with 'first pattern' denim fatigues (they go along with SD) was a similar swap arranged for their fatigue clothing?

Second, were fatigues issued as 'personal equipment' to each soldier or were they kept as unit or section stores (to be drawn when required for 'dirty work' and then returned)? If the former (as Martin Brayley has pointed out), each soldier was expected to keep his equipment together and could be fined for losing it (e.g. a lost rifle incurred a fine roughly equal to one month's pay for private soldier).

In short, more questions than answers and more supposition than grounded fact. What I call 'myth'. It may be possible, it may even be probable, but that doesn't make it fact. Given the obsessive nature of stores and logistics in the British Army (and the need to replace lost materiel) I'd be surprised if this information isn't available in some old-fashioned paper archive for anyone with the time and inclination to research it.

Personally, I think there would be plenty of opportunity for the Germans to acquire the 'correct' pattern of denim fatigues later in the war, without needing 'Dunkirk' as a source. What about the later evacuations of the Second BEF in Operations Ariel and Cycle from Normandy, for instance? Both involved abandoning stores and equipment (an estimated 2/3rd of the quantity left behind in North Eastern France) and, as the 2nd BEF troops equipped and embarked later they were more likely (in my opinion) to have been issued with the later pattern denim BD. As an aside, where were the main U-Boot bases later in WW2? Brest, Lorient, St. Nazaire, all in North Western France, where the 2nd BEF stores were abandoned.

So, my 'bet' (pending some proper research) as the most likely source of KM U-Boot British Denim BD would be Cherbourg or St. Malo rather than 'Dunkirk'.

I tend to agree with Ben here. The BEF would have had enormous amounts of supplies with it in France. I think that these may have been captured. And lets be honest they were in an horrendous flap with the evacuation and left behind far more important pieces of equipment, so it follows that kit stores weren't the highest priority to take back to Britain.

 

[H.Johnson]

I love to learn things

As a direct result of this thread, I have had to revise completely what I thought I knew about British BD. I always thought that the original Serge BD was developed in 1937, 'trialed' in 1938, issued to 'non-regular' troops in 1939 and to regulars from 'mid 1940'. Then it was replaced by the 1940 (a.k.a. 'austerity') Pattern gradually, leading up to full supply in 1942.

I now know that this is not correct. Official records show that 1940 pattern is in fact a modification of Serge BD, and differs in the position of pockets and the trimness of the cut. The 'austerity' pattern is in fact 1942 Pattern and appears as such on labels (as a real expert has shown to me). So, what happened? Apparently, when the 1942 pattern was introduced, manufacturers still had large supplies of 1940 pattern labels, and as all other details (sizes etc.) were the same they carried on using them until stocks were exhausted (I don't know if official approval was given for this).

So, we see commonly the 'austerity' exposed button pattern labelled 1940 pattern and (much more rarely) the earlier fly-front, concealed button variety (with repositioned pockets) also as 1940 pattern.

I dare say that lots of people already knew this, but it is new to me. I love to learn new things...

 

[benstephens]

I think I posted a dit on this a while ago. That is why I will not refer to anything as 37patt, as there was no such pattern.
I have seen a lot more 1940 pattern blouses, which are labelled as suchthan I have Blouses, serge. I have, once seen a Austerity BD labelled as 42 patt, but as you say more often thaan not it is labelled as 40 pattern, and sometimes 40 pattern (austerity)
There are actually variants of the Austerity pattern BD. The early ones issued in 1942 had two inside pockets. I think I may have a proper 1940 pattern blouse for sale at Beltring. Dated 1941 I believe.

Kindest Regards

Ben