Buying jackets on Japanese auction sites

[Mich486]

Not only that. The sites linked to Buyee/Tenso like Rakuten, Yahoo Auction JP, Mecari are only marketplaces. Even if you can access those sites directly without needing a proxy, you are still taking risks. It is like ebay. It is only because paypal is so buyers friendly that many people risk buying on ebay.
I am glad Jon paid through paypal which actually gives him a chance to recoup any losses. I am also worried that proxy service may decide not to accept paypal in the future because of exposure to risk posed by those dishonest sellers. In any case, I don't think Tenso is the culprit here. It is easy for people to look at these proxy service as agents but IMO the responsibility placed on them is disproportionate to what they make and they themselves are not protected because paypal is not the usual choice of payment on those marketplaces. It is not like Tenso etc are charging the rate/commission of a broker or personal shopper. What they are charging is just a few hundred yens plus a share of the shipping fee. Afterall, the marketplaces themselves like ebay are not exposed to such risk despite them getting a share of the purchase price.

On eBay people take risks because eBay always sides with the buyer. I don’t think you need to involve PayPal at all. Just file for item not as described and eBay will handle the rest.

Anyway, also the proxies do not all work the same way. On zenmarket you deposit money into your profile account and then you bid/buy. You can deposit through PayPal but I guess that way the PayPal protection is gone. If on Buyee you pay the auction directly from PayPal then I guess you are covered. I still prefer zen market though as it lets you declare the value of the items

I tend to buy new or lightly used stuff but I know that I’m taking a risk. I had zero problems so far with several dozens transactions. The savings compared to buying from a western shops are huge and worth the risk.

From zenmarket T&Cs:

“We are responsible for a purchased item from the moment it arrives at our warehouse until the moment when it leaves our warehouse. In case of an unforeseen situation we try our best to protect our clients. However, ZenMarket is not responsible for the acts of sellers, such as delays, the item not matching the description on their website, or delivery of broken or incorrect items. Our staff will help you to communicate with sellers to resolve disputes, but we do not guarantee positive results. If you buy new items from Japanese online marketplaces, such situations are very rare, but if you are worried about the condition of purchased items we recommend you use our "Item photo" service before shipping internationally.”

 

[jonbuilder]

To update the complaint with paypal, paypal has informed me tenso has replied and they will review and make a decision.

 

[Blackadder]

On eBay people take risks because eBay always sides with the buyer. I don’t think you need to involve PayPal at all. Just file for item not as described and eBay will handle the rest.

Anyway, also the proxies do not all work the same way. On zenmarket you deposit money into your profile account and then you bid/buy. You can deposit through PayPal but I guess that way the PayPal protection is gone. If on Buyee you pay the auction directly from PayPal then I guess you are covered. I still prefer zen market though as it lets you declare the value of the items

I tend to buy new or lightly used stuff but I know that I’m taking a risk. I had zero problems so far with several dozens transactions. The savings compared to buying from a western shops are huge and worth the risk.

From zenmarket T&Cs:

“We are responsible for a purchased item from the moment it arrives at our warehouse until the moment when it leaves our warehouse. In case of an unforeseen situation we try our best to protect our clients. However, ZenMarket is not responsible for the acts of sellers, such as delays, the item not matching the description on their website, or delivery of broken or incorrect items. Our staff will help you to communicate with sellers to resolve disputes, but we do not guarantee positive results. If you buy new items from Japanese online marketplaces, such situations are very rare, but if you are worried about the condition of purchased items we recommend you use our "Item photo" service before shipping internationally.”

Lol, I guess you are right about ebay being the protector of buyers and not paypal.
In the present case, Mecari is not auction site but is like etsy.

 

[jonbuilder]

On eBay people take risks because eBay always sides with the buyer. I don’t think you need to involve PayPal at all. Just file for item not as described and eBay will handle the rest.

Anyway, also the proxies do not all work the same way. On zenmarket you deposit money into your profile account and then you bid/buy. You can deposit through PayPal but I guess that way the PayPal protection is gone. If on Buyee you pay the auction directly from PayPal then I guess you are covered. I still prefer zen market though as it lets you declare the value of the items

I tend to buy new or lightly used stuff but I know that I’m taking a risk. I had zero problems so far with several dozens transactions. The savings compared to buying from a western shops are huge and worth the risk.

From zenmarket T&Cs:

“We are responsible for a purchased item from the moment it arrives at our warehouse until the moment when it leaves our warehouse. In case of an unforeseen situation we try our best to protect our clients. However, ZenMarket is not responsible for the acts of sellers, such as delays, the item not matching the description on their website, or delivery of broken or incorrect items. Our staff will help you to communicate with sellers to resolve disputes, but we do not guarantee positive results. If you buy new items from Japanese online marketplaces, such situations are very rare, but if you are worried about the condition of purchase items we recommend you use our "Item photo" service before shipping internationally.”

I think your comment, not all proxies work the same is an important consideration, a point I was going to bring up myself. I have not looked into any other services than buyee AKA tenso inc. Just the fact that tenso inc calls their business a proxy does not take away from the fact they first buy an item and then resell it to their client in a separate transaction. Money is not deposited into an account. A buyer in my case selects to buy an item from buyee's website based on buyee's pictures and description. The buyer authorizes funds to be paid to buyee for an agreed price shown on their website plus fees and payment processing through paypal. Buyee purchases the item from an auction site and now becomes the owner of the item. Buyee then sells the item to the buyer for the agreed price and claims the funds sitting in the buyer's paypal account. Buyee then sends the buyer an invoice for the agreed price which in my case was the priced list on their website plus $100 in fees and payment processing. I believe paypal will find that tenso sold me the item, a jacket, and based on the description on his website delivered a item not as described.

 

[willyto]

I bought a jacket from Mercari through Buyee Yesterday. I noticed it worked different than with Yahoo Auctions.

It arrived today at the warehouse and had it ship with DHL. The jacket had disclosed damage of 1cm on one sleeve. I saved 1300€ From the original price so I think I will be able to live with it.

We’ll see what the damage is upon arrival and hopefully it will fit. Seller mentioned “ there are 2 scratches of 1cm in sleeve but they are not holes” or so said the translator.

 

[Blackadder]

I think your comment, not all proxies work the same is an important consideration, a point I was going to bring up myself. I have not looked into any other services than buyee AKA tenso inc. Just the fact that tenso inc calls their business a proxy does not take away from the fact they first buy an item and then resell it to their client in a separate transaction. Money is not deposited into an account. A buyer in my case selects to buy an item from buyee's website based on buyee's pictures and description. The buyer authorizes funds to be paid to buyee for an agreed price shown on their website plus fees and payment processing through paypal. Buyee purchases the item from an auction site and now becomes the owner of the item. Buyee then sells the item to the buyer for the agreed price and claims the funds sitting in the buyer's paypal account. Buyee then sends the buyer an invoice for the agreed price which in my case was the priced list on their website plus $100 in fees and payment processing. I believe paypal will find that tenso sold me the item, a jacket, and based on the description on his website delivered a item not as described.

The pictures and description are all redirected from the respective sites like Yahoo Auction JP and Mecari and unlike those ebay resellers, the origins of the products are clearly stated on item's page e.g. Buyee provides a link (top right) that says view the actual item on Yahoo Auction JP, the same with items from Mecari. It is possible that a new user may have missed all that so it may seem fair to chalk it up as a misunderstanding and give you a refund but I do not think your argument stands. Buyee certainly cannot claim the photos and description theirs because they are in fact not. It is also difficult to claim misrepresentation when they do provide a link to the original sites unlike the ebay resellers. It may be said that the whole thing including but not limited to the user's agreement and the site design is so complicated and confusing that some users should not be held liable.

 

[jonbuilder]

I realize where the pictures and description originated, but what I saw was displayed on tenso buyee website not yahoo japan. If I follow the link to Mercari it clearly states "For international purchases, your transaction will be with Buyee". In my case, there were three separate transactions. First, I agreed to buy the jacket from tenso for y amount, at this time tenso did not own the jacket. Tenso arrived at y amount buy (x + z) = y where z were (fees + transition processing cost). Second, tenso inc purchased the jacket for x amount which made tenso the jacket owner. Third, two days after tenso purchased the jacket and is now the owner of the jacket, tenso sold the jacket to me for y amount. My explanation is based on following the money trail. Also, tenso generated an invoice in the amount of y for a jacket. There are no invoices from tenso for fees. I would not have gone through with the purchase if I did not have the buyer protection plan through paypal. I would not have entered into the transaction with tenso if I saw the transaction as forking over money to tenso to buy the jacket for me. In the latter case, I would have paid tenso prior to tenso buying and becoming the owner of the jacket. In the latter case I would have to rely on the inspection, insurance fee I paid to tenso. I am still waiting to hear if paypal agrees with my interpretation of the transactions. Tenso standard plan does include inspection and refund for damage.
Standard Plan
Service Fee: 500 JPY per order

This plan offers a full inspection of your items at our warehouse, and guarantees a refund in the event they are damaged.

 

[Blackadder]

I realize where the pictures and description originated, but what I saw was displayed on tenso buyee website not yahoo japan. If I follow the link to Mercari it clearly states "For international purchases, your transaction will be with Buyee". In my case, there were three separate transactions. First, I agreed to buy the jacket from tenso for y amount, at this time tenso did not own the jacket. Tenso arrived at y amount buy (x + z) = y where z were (fees + transition processing cost). Second, tenso inc purchased the jacket for x amount which made tenso the jacket owner. Third, two days after tenso purchased the jacket and is now the owner of the jacket, tenso sold the jacket to me for y amount. My explanation is based on following the money trail. Also, tenso generated an invoice in the amount of y for a jacket. There are no invoices from tenso for fees. I would not have gone through with the purchase if I did not have the buyer protection plan through paypal. I would not have entered into the transaction with tenso if I saw the transaction as forking over money to tenso to buy the jacket for me. In the latter case, I would have paid tenso prior to tenso buying and becoming the owner of the jacket. In the latter case I would have to rely on the inspection, insurance fee I paid to tenso. I am still waiting to hear if paypal agrees with my interpretation of the transactions. Tenso standard plan does include inspection and refund for damage.
Standard Plan
Service Fee: 500 JPY per order

This plan offers a full inspection of your items at our warehouse, and guarantees a refund in the event they are damaged.

What you are describing is the exact definition of proxy service because every proxy service would have to "buy the product first then sell it to the actual buyer" because the actual buyer cannot himself access those sites. So if what you say holds then there would be no proxy service, just resellers charging a premium like on ebay or mere forwarder in which case the actual buyer has to have access to the site himself.
The invoice according to my understanding is for the product plus the fee and itemised as such. Arguably, if one pay for inspection, buyee should be responsible somehow but it is a second hand product with damage already stated and the description is by no means a guarantee of quality and state. That a simple description of a used product is not a guarantee of state is the usual trade practice anywhere. It is more an honour system that any sellers taking the time to document and reveal all the flaws would definitely attract more customers. ebay kind of on its own made it into an exact term or guarantee because of their policy to side with buyers.
I am actually surprised when buyee offered that (they did not have this option a few years back) because as far as I know, almost none of the sellers on Yahoo Auction JP offer return or refund for any reason. It is a vastly different culture and custom to ebay which is probably one of the reasons why these Japanese sites decide not to open to foreign buyers at all. I think they wanted to make up for loss of the profit (they reduced their fee to 300 yen from 10% of item price because of the increased competition) and ended up opening a whole can of worms.
I think there is a easier way out for Paypal to find for you. It is on the insurance/inspection charge. The product was very possibly damaged during shipping considering that 1) it passed buyee's inspection with relation to buyer's description and 2) the poor packaging taking into account the high value of the goods and all the extra service plan you chose.

 

[jonbuilder]

Well, Blackadder I can say I and others appreciate your input and methodologically and detailed write-ups on how Yahoo Japan and the proxy buying systems function. You are well experienced and I am green around the gills with is why I started this tread. I took a chance because I saw something that I been searching for twenty years. I would have never been aware the jacket was for sale except for eBay. I would not deal with Japanese sellers to save a hundred dollars but would pursue something I have not been able to find on the US markets that I search.

 

[jonbuilder]

Paypal has sent me a measage
"Please provide any information we ask you to send us within 10 days. If we don't hear back from you within this time frame, we may decide this case in the seller’s favor.
To continue with our investigation, we need documentation supporting your claim the item is damaged or significantly not as described. You need to get a document (such as an estimate or invoice) from an unbiased third-party, such as a dealer, repair shop, appraiser, or another individual or organization that is qualified in the area of the item in question (other than you).

This document should detail the extent of the damage or clearly explain how the item received significantly differs from the item advertised. No repairs or alterations should be made to the item, as doing so will limit our ability to successfully resolve your case and may result in the cancellation of your dispute."
The pictures and description of damage I sent them to compare with the link to tenso INC website are not enough.
Tenso must be claiming the damage was disclosed. I do not have access to tenso's reply to paypal

 

[sweetfights]

Paypal has sent me a measage
"Please provide any information we ask you to send us within 10 days. If we don't hear back from you within this time frame, we may decide this case in the seller’s favor.
To continue with our investigation, we need documentation supporting your claim the item is damaged or significantly not as described. You need to get a document (such as an estimate or invoice) from an unbiased third-party, such as a dealer, repair shop, appraiser, or another individual or organization that is qualified in the area of the item in question (other than you).

This document should detail the extent of the damage or clearly explain how the item received significantly differs from the item advertised. No repairs or alterations should be made to the item, as doing so will limit our ability to successfully resolve your case and may result in the cancellation of your dispute."
The pictures and description of damage I sent them to compare with the link to tenso INC website are not enough.
Tenso must be claiming the damage was disclosed. I do not have access to tenso's reply to paypal

You do not get to read their reply. With the few similar issues I had with PayPal I was successful half the time. The other half went to the villain.

 

[Marc mndt]

Paypal has sent me a measage
"Please provide any information we ask you to send us within 10 days. If we don't hear back from you within this time frame, we may decide this case in the seller’s favor.
To continue with our investigation, we need documentation supporting your claim the item is damaged or significantly not as described. You need to get a document (such as an estimate or invoice) from an unbiased third-party, such as a dealer, repair shop, appraiser, or another individual or organization that is qualified in the area of the item in question (other than you).

This document should detail the extent of the damage or clearly explain how the item received significantly differs from the item advertised. No repairs or alterations should be made to the item, as doing so will limit our ability to successfully resolve your case and may result in the cancellation of your dispute."
The pictures and description of damage I sent them to compare with the link to tenso INC website are not enough.
Tenso must be claiming the damage was disclosed. I do not have access to tenso's reply to paypal

Maybe you could ship the jacket to Dena or Johnson Leathers. Have them explain these are not creases but actuals rips/tears and that the structural integrity of the jacket is very much compromised by those tears. Maybe they could also state that the overall condition of the leather/topcoat is beyond repair. Can't argue with that imo. I think a written statement of one of these third parties would be very helpful to your case.

 

[jonbuilder]

Maybe you could ship the jacket to Dena or Johnson Leathers. Have them explain these are not creases but actuals rips/tears and that the structural integrity of the jacket is very much compromised by those tears. Maybe they could also state that the overall condition of the leather/topcoat is beyond repair. Can't argue with that imo. I think a written statement of one of these third parties would be very helpful to your case.

I am driving to Johnson Leathers this morning. Alan who I have dealt with for the past 20 years is only there on Saturdays but he will respond. I was planning on taking he jacket to JL anyway to get started with the process to make a reproduction. This is how I plan to spend the money if paypal decides in my favor. Otherwise, I will file a dispute my credit card. I did this once the last time I filled with paypal 15 years ago and paypal decided against me. The credit card refunded and then paypal went after the seller.

 

[jonbuilder]

My paypal dispute has been resolved. tenso has agreed to take the jacket back. I am responsible for return shipping. Paypal is a payment processing service and unlike eBay, not a market place so they do not control shipping. I do no know what changed tenso mind regarding accepting the return, perhaps he was able to resolve something with Yahoo Japan or the original seller

 

[Marc mndt]

My paypal dispute has been resolved. tenso has agreed to take the jacket back. I am responsible for return shipping. Paypal is a payment processing service and unlike eBay, not a market place so they do not control shipping. I do no know what changed tenso mind regarding accepting the return, perhaps he was able to resolve something with Yahoo Japan or the original seller

I'm glad to hear the issue has been resolved in your favor. It was a lot of money for a teared up jacket.

 

[JMax]

My paypal dispute has been resolved. tenso has agreed to take the jacket back. I am responsible for return shipping. Paypal is a payment processing service and unlike eBay, not a market place so they do not control shipping. I do no know what changed tenso mind regarding accepting the return, perhaps he was able to resolve something with Yahoo Japan or the original seller

Will you have time to have JL take a peak at the Trojan?

 

[yellowfever]

That’s great news, I’m sure it must have been quite stressful dealing with all this, but glad it’s a happy ending. And a useful cautionary tale too when looking at the various tempting jackets (and others things) via buyee.

I found a rare ohlins shock absorber for my motorbike there that I’ve been searching for for years (they don’t make them anymore and are so rare I’ve even looked at getting one built from parts, but it’s ruinously expensive) it was a decent price and looks in great shape (and I have contacts here who can rebuild/service it as needs be). But I can’t buy it, as I can’t get it shipped due to hazardous goods shipping policies, even though it should be able to be shipped by sea... frustrating, but then maybe I dodged a bullet given all the things that can go wrong...

 

[Blackadder]

Happy for you. Although it seems unfair to blame Buyee as they are proxy only and they do not have own inhouse buyer to actively seek things to buy and resell at their website. They couldn't have seen the product beforehand nor taken responsibility for the description (and google translation) and when it arrives at their warehouse they are not in the position to take upon themselves to reject it on behalf of the user. Had they been a reselling service/vintage clothing trader, they may not even take the risk with this particular jacket given the high price>low profit margin.
Despite the fact that the internet has made direct access to many markets possible, these other markets may have different custom and practices to your usual local ones. I remember Yahoo opened a local Yahoo Auction and it was closed down some 10 years ago because of serious abuse of the system. Sellers will set a very low starting bid then list the actual price he/she would sell the item for in the description. Bidders are then expected to pay the actual price when they place the bid. Yahoo lost out on all the commission and decided to close the site. It is noteworthy why in stead of adding measures like ebay to weed out such practice, Yahoo decided to simply close it down. That is because people over here do not like putting things up on auction so there would not be enough business for Yahoo even if Yahoo did revise the system.

 

[jonbuilder]

Will you have time to have JL take a peak at the Trojan?

Yes it is at JL now and I met Alan here Saturday to pick up the jacket and discuss a reproduction

 

[jonbuilder]

Happy for you. Although it seems unfair to blame Buyee as they are proxy only and they do not have own inhouse buyer to actively seek things to buy and resell at their website. They couldn't have seen the product beforehand nor taken responsibility for the description (and google translation) and when it arrives at their warehouse they are not in the position to take upon themselves to reject it on behalf of the user. Had they been a reselling service/vintage clothing trader, they may not even take the risk with this particular jacket given the high price>low profit margin.
Despite the fact that the internet has made direct access to many markets possible, these other markets may have different custom and practices to your usual local ones. I remember Yahoo opened a local Yahoo Auction and it was closed down some 10 years ago because of serious abuse of the system. Sellers will set a very low starting bid then list the actual price he/she would sell the item for in the description. Bidders are then expected to pay the actual price when they place the bid. Yahoo lost out on all the commission and decided to close the site. It is noteworthy why in stead of adding measures like ebay to weed out such practice, Yahoo decided to simply close it down. That is because people over here do not like putting things up on auction so there would not be enough business for Yahoo even if Yahoo did revise the system.

We have different views on buyee being strictly poxy of buying and reselling at a profit. I explained my case base on the money trail. Either way, tenso agreed to take the jacket back, paypal did no jam him to take it back because they were going to issue a refund. Perhaps he did inspect the jacket like he was contracted to do and decided it was as described. I think tenso may get hit with Japan import taxes because he is importing a US-made jacket into Japan. I know he put me and others through the wringer paying US import taxes on US-made jacket re-entering the US because he filled the customs paper out incorrectly. I did message tenso about the custom error but he has not responded.
I do not plan on searching the buyee website but if something is brought to my attention I not ruling out taking another stab.
I am losing on shipping both ways and chasing my custom payment.
tenso is getting his jacket back without any additional expenses unless japan customs hits him. He did per agreement examine the jacket and decided it was not damaged so he is getting his goods back.