Want to buy or sell something? Check the classifieds
  • The Fedora Lounge is supported in part by commission earning affiliate links sitewide. Please support us by using them. You may learn more here.

"Discovery of U-Boat Wrecks Rewrites the History Books"

The Lonely Navigator

Practically Family
Messages
644
Location
Somewhere...
(This was posted in the U-Boat Society forum and I thought some would be interested in reading it here...)

"Discovery of U-Boat Wrecks Rewrites the History Books"


The final resting places of six German U-boats sunk in the final months of the Second World War's greatest naval conflict have finally been identified. After years of research, maritime experts say their discoveries will force historians to re-evaluate the battle for control of the Atlantic.


Evidence from the wrecks suggests many U-boats were sunk by mines rather than attacks by Allied air and naval forces, as had previously been believed. The findings show coastal minefields were around three times more effective than British naval intelligence gave them credit for. Experts believe their view was distorted, unintentionally, by reports from over-enthusiastic airmen and escort ship commanders who sometimes claimed they had sunk U-boats with depth charges or anti-submarine mortars.

One submarine, the U-400, previously believed sunk by Royal Navy depth charges south of Cork in Ireland, has now been identified off the coast of north Cornwall. The German sub was on its very first patrol in December 1944 when it hit a mine, underwater photography suggests.

Another, the U-1021, also identified off the north Cornish coast, was on its first patrol in March 1945 when sunk by mines. Previously, it was thought the Royal Navy had sunk it with depth charges hundreds of miles away, off the west coast of Scotland. The U-326, also on its first patrol when it was destroyed by a US aerial depth charge attack in April 1945, has been identified 100 miles off the coast of Brittany. The U-325, sunk on its second patrol in May 1945, was thought to have been destroyed by Royal Navy depth charges in the Irish Sea. Now marine archaeology and underwater photography have identified it on the seabed 230 miles away – off Lizard Point, south Cornwall.

Other U-boats, sunk far from British coastal minefields, have also been identified. The U-1208, on its first patrol, was identified off the Scilly Isles after being sunk by Royal Navy depth charges in February 1945. The U-650, recently identified through underwater photography near Land's End, was sunk by a direct hit from a hedgehog anti-submarine missile in January 1945.

From 1939 to early 1943, the Germans were very successful in their U-boat operations – sinking 2,500 Allied merchant ships and around 50 Allied warships, with the loss of around 25,000 lives. The tide turned in May 1943 when, with new equipment and a fresh strategy, the Allies got the upper hand.

The discoveries came from a survey of the western English Channel and adjacent areas, undertaken by the US firm Odyssey Marine Exploration. Dr Axel Niestlé, a German U-boat historian involved in the project, said: "It is a fine example of successful teamwork between marine archaeologists and historians rewriting naval history. The underwater photography gave us an unparalleled opportunity to learn how different types of Second World War anti-submarine weaponry worked."

From 1939-45, the Germans built 1,167 U-boats, 863 of which were deployed in the Battle of the Atlantic; 648 were sunk – with a loss of around 25,000 submariners. The locations of 40 U-boats remain a mystery. Thirty disappeared in deep water in the Atlantic, and it is unlikely they will be found. The remainder lie in a variety of suspected locations in the eastern part of the English Channel, where the team hopes to find them.
 

Stearmen

I'll Lock Up
Messages
7,202
Enigma

The real turning point in the U-Boat war came when the Royal Navy captured the code books for the Enigma machines, allowing them to plot where every U-Boat was in the Atlantic! Later we Yanks helped by capturing U505 with the Enigma machine and all her code books. Why could nt they have made a movie about that instead of a stupid fictional movie? The first time since the War of 1812 that our navy captured a ship on the high seas!
 

The Lonely Navigator

Practically Family
Messages
644
Location
Somewhere...
I agree Stearman. I refuse to watch that U 571 movie precisely because of that. It was the Royal Navy that first obtained the items, not the U.S. Navy.

I do hope to someday see the U 505.:) I'm glad they moved her into a 'bunker' of sorts...a large room to keep her in so she stays better preserved.
 

Ruptured Duck™

New in Town
Messages
26
Location
The United States
Prien said:
I agree Stearman. I refuse to watch that U 571 movie precisely because of that. It was the Royal Navy that first obtained the items, not the U.S. Navy.

I do hope to someday see the U 505.:) I'm glad they moved her into a 'bunker' of sorts...a large room to keep her in so she stays better preserved.

Agreed on the stupidity of the U571.

The story of the U505 would have been a better movie.

On a side note, I'll be viewing the U505 in another week. I'll have to post some pics here....
 

StetsonHomburg

Practically Family
Messages
518
Location
None of your business!
Prien said:
I agree Stearman. I refuse to watch that U 571 movie precisely because of that. It was the Royal Navy that first obtained the items, not the U.S. Navy.

I do hope to someday see the U 505.:) I'm glad they moved her into a 'bunker' of sorts...a large room to keep her in so she stays better preserved.
Agreed, Good find too!
Also on the topic of
movies, a couple of
weeks every year
history television
has a U-boat special
I believe it is a 3 or 4
part documentary... comes
one once or twice a year.
It has alot of info from the capture
of the first enigma to certain commanders
, wulfpacks, and convoys ...
 

Chas

One Too Many
Messages
1,715
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Not really sure how this particular wreck rewrites history, though, unless it adjusts the number of U-Boats that were sunk by mines. That has been an ongoing process since the war ended, actually; meaning, that patrol reports, ship's logs and other documents have been examined by the Admiralty to record as accurately as possible what U-Boats were sunk where and when.

Ah. So examining past events isn't necessarily revisionist. How interesting.

The Enigma decrypts are only part of the story. The work of Bletchley Park certainly allowed the intel to be used effectively, but by itself it was not a turning point, per se. The turning point was May, 1943 that came about by a number of factors.

The factors that went into ensuring the victory in the Atlantic included improved escort tactics pioneered by J. Walker RN and others, the use of escort carriers, VLR aircraft, improved DC's and other ASW weapons and improved coordination between sea and coastal air forces were crucial. Most crucial, in this writer's opinion, was the vast Allied technological edge especially in terms of radar. The 10cm radar allowed a/c to hunt the KM subs in any weather, day or night. Allied Radar was so good, in fact, that they could spot shnorckel masts in most weather. Combine this with HF/DF and the intel, the U-Boats were done. The KM never appreciated the use of radar, and they paid dearly for it. Compare that to the experience of the USN in the Pacific, who used radar very effectively.

The Germans never really kept pace in the arms race in the BotA, they kept altering their priorities; the shnorckel, for example, was invented some time in the early 1930's and was never adopted. The Germans even captured some Dutch submarines with shnorkels attached, and didn't use them. I highly doubt that even the type XXI boats even would have made a difference. The allies were producing more ships than the Germans could sink; US shipyards were pumping out one Liberty ship every day at one point.

Enigma in and of itself is a whole other story. It is an assiduously overlooked fact that it was in fact the Polish who first broke the Enigma code; they had been working on it since the early '30s. They even copied the enigma machine and sent two copies to the French and British. The Poles even had their own decoding 'computer'.

Of course, the Germans were so arrogant and single minded about intelligence work that they never even considered the possibility that we were reading their mail, though there were strong indications that we were. They considered Enigma to be unbreakable.
 

Dav

One Too Many
Messages
1,706
Location
Somerset, England
Chas said:
Enigma in and of itself is a whole other story. It is an assiduously overlooked fact that it was in fact the Polish who first broke the Enigma code; they had been working on it since the early '30s. They even copied the enigma machine and sent two copies to the French and British. The Poles even had their own decoding 'computer'.
.
Well I didn't know that.
 

Chas

One Too Many
Messages
1,715
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Yep. Marian Rejewski was the guy who pulled it off; he was a brilliant young mathemetician. Of course, the machine got more complicated as it was improved and more rotors added, but the crucial groundwork was laid by the him and other Poles.
 

Stearmen

I'll Lock Up
Messages
7,202
Polish

What the Polish cryptographers did was staggering, the odds of braking the code on the Enigma machine was calculated by the Germans to be, 150 million million million to one! Incidently, the people who worked at Bletchley Park, were timed to see if they could solve the Daily Telegraph crossword puzzle in less then 12 minutes.
 

The Lonely Navigator

Practically Family
Messages
644
Location
Somewhere...
@ Ruptured Duck:

Yeah that would have made a much better movie - as it could also let people know about the 'real' U 505 that's in Chicago so then people could go visit it and then have a good understanding of life in the U-Boats. It would also, most likely, help shed light on the U.S. role in the Battle of the Atlantic with, not only regards to the U.S. Navy, but also the U.S. Merchant Marine as well.

I would be happy to see your photos! Let those of us interested know how it goes! :)


@ StetsonHomburg: Sometimes I can 'catch' a U-Boat documentary. I have some on my website that are listed in YouTube. Some have minor mistakes in, but I didn't want to 'kill off' a decently good documentary (with accounts from both sides) due to a few mistakes. If you've really gone through both WWI and WWII U-Boat books on the crews, and even general Battle of the Atlantic books - you'll be able to pick out the mistakes easily.

@ Stearman: I had met, in Reading (at the WWII Weekend)...back in '04, a man who had several Enigma machines. I had an interesting discussion with him (and perhaps there may be some here who might remember seeing him as well - he was located in the large hanger with the veterans). We talked about the KM one (which had 4 rotors) compared with the ones used by the other branches which only had 3. Here is a link on the Enigma

In the one documentary, which is hopefully still up (on YouTube) that I have on my site - Kretschmer talks about how he found a book, English/British book, that was about the English reading the U-Boat signals during WWI. He read this book and had mentioned about making signal contact, etc. with the signals being read during WWII.

This is why I always suggest, very strongly, that people read about the U-Boat war during WWI. As the British did read the signals during WWI too.

(Edit to fix grammar)
 

reetpleat

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,681
Location
Seattle
Interesting. I listened to a book on cd about the guys that were deep wreck divers and discovered and explored a wreck off the coast of NEw Jersey. It took years and numerous deaths before they finally got a positive ID, which was a boat thought to have been sunk off the coast of Africa.

The title is Shadow Divers. Has both the discovery story and a lot of good u boat research.

Great story.

In fact, it is free to the first person to post, then follow up with a pm with address.

I will cover the shipping.
 

The Lonely Navigator

Practically Family
Messages
644
Location
Somewhere...
That was brought up by someone I ran into at Reading this year. He said the same thing - great read! I have not yet read it but keep getting told about it...LoL!lol

Edit to add: Also while at this year's Reading, when I was speaking with one of the Civil Air Patrol pilots, who had his restored aircraft (they were right near Kilroy's Homefront group), a staff member of the event was listening to us talk. I had mentioned about, how during WWI the U-Boats came into Delaware Bay and also off of the U.S. East Coast. He said he didn't know that...but an attack of the U.S. East Coast also happened in WWI. U 53 (Hans Rose) is one of the more well known commanders that was off the U.S. East Coast.
 

reetpleat

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,681
Location
Seattle
Prien said:
That was brought up by someone I ran into at Reading this year. He said the same thing - great read! I have not yet read it but keep getting told about it...LoL!lol

Do you want the book on CD?
 

The Lonely Navigator

Practically Family
Messages
644
Location
Somewhere...
@ Ruptured Duck:

Forgot to mention this book you may find a good read:

Steel Boat - Iron Hearts

Hans Goebeler is known as the man who "pulled the plug" on U-505 in 1944 to keep his beloved U-boat out of Allied hands. Steel Boat, Iron Hearts is his no-holds-barred account of service aboard a combat U-boat. It is the only full-length memoir of its kind, and Goebeler was aboard for every one of U-505’s war patrols.
Using his own experiences, log books, and correspondence with other U-boat crewmen, Goebeler offers rich and very personal details about what life was like in the German Navy under Hitler. Because his first and last posting was to U-505, Goebeler’s perspective of the crew, commanders, and war patrols paints a vivid and complete portrait unlike any other to come out of the Kriegsmarine. He witnessed it all: from deadly sabotage efforts that almost sunk the boat to the tragic suicide of the only U-boat commander who took his life during WWII; from the terror and exhilaration of hunting the enemy, to the seedy brothels of France. The vivid, honest, and smooth-flowing prose calls it like it was and pulls no punches.

U-505 was captured by Captain Dan Gallery’s Guadalcanal Task Group 22.3 on June 4, 1944. Trapped by this "Hunter-Killer" group, U-505 was depth-charged to the surface, strafed by machine gun fire, and boarded. It was the first ship captured at sea since the War of 1812! Today, hundreds of thousands of visitors tour U-505 each year at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry.

Included a special Introduction by Keith Gill, Curator of U-505, Museum of Science and Industry.

About the Authors: Hans Jacob Goebeler served as control room mate aboard U-505. He died in 1999. John P. Vanzo is a former defense program analyst. He teaches political science and geography at Bainbridge College in Georgia.
 

Jabos

A-List Customer
Messages
441
Location
Oklahoma
Ruptured Duck™ said:
Agreed on the stupidity of the U571.

The story of the U505 would have been a better movie.

On a side note, I'll be viewing the U505 in another week. I'll have to post some pics here....
When you turn the corner in the museum and see it, you will be blown away. It is one of the "coolest" things I've ever seen.
 

StetsonHomburg

Practically Family
Messages
518
Location
None of your business!
Prien said:
@ Ruptured Duck:

@ StetsonHomburg: If you've really gone through both WWI and WWII U-Boat books on the crews, and even general Battle of the Atlantic books - you'll be able to pick out the mistakes easily.

I can't agree more, I spent at least three years researching the north
afrikaan kampaign and now I can pick up a mistake :whip: like that.
 

Ruptured Duck™

New in Town
Messages
26
Location
The United States
Prien said:
@ Ruptured Duck:

Forgot to mention this book you may find a good read:

Steel Boat - Iron Hearts

Thanks Prien! I will definitely check it out! I honestly have only recently gotten interested in the BotA and U-boats, etc...I've always been more intrigued by the Third Dimension in WWII. The U-boat angle has always been mind-blowing to me, and the U-505 story really intrigued me when I first read of it years ago. I'm not sure why I never got around to visiting the Chicago museum, but it's on my agenda in two weeks.

The book is now saved on my Amazon wish list!

Jabos said:
When you turn the corner in the museum and see it, you will be blown away. It is one of the "coolest" things I've ever seen.

I've seen pics online and I've had students of mine come tell me that it is jarring! I cannot wait...I'm really excited to see it.
 

The Lonely Navigator

Practically Family
Messages
644
Location
Somewhere...
@ Ruptured Duck:

No problem. ;) It's a very good read. I would love to see the U 505 as well, but it's quite a drive from me living in NE Pennsylvania. I'm only too thankful there is a U-Boat here in the U.S. otherwise it would be a flight out to Germany to see the U 995 (Type VIIC/41).

Well...I'm still young, so one of these days I'll be sure to get out there.

I too have seen the online photos, and was really amazed when they were moving it into the 'bunker' (room) for it, as they had posted photos of the move. Man that was something!:eek:

@ StetsonHomburg: lol I know the feeling. ;)
 

The Lonely Navigator

Practically Family
Messages
644
Location
Somewhere...
"Shadow Divers" (since this book was brought up - I'll post the information/description on that)

From the dust jacket:

"A true tale of riveting adventure in which two weekend scuba divers risk everything to solve a great historical mystery - and make history themselves.

"For John Chatterton and Richie Kohler, deep wreck diving was more than a sport. Testing themselves against treacherous currents, braving depths that induced hallucinatory effects, navigating through wreckage as perilous as a minefield, they pushed themselves to their limits and beyond, brushing against death more than once in the rusting hulks of sunken ships.

"But in the fall of 1991, not even these courageous divers were prepared for what they found 230 feet below the surface, in the frigid Atlantic waters sixty miles off the coast of New Jersey: a World War II German U-boat, its ruined interior a macabre wasteland of twisted metal, tangled wires, and human bones - all buried under decades of accumulated sediment.

"No identifying marks were visible on the submarine or the few artifacts that Chatterton and Kohler brought to the surface. No historian, expert, or government had a clue as to which U-boat the men had found. In fact, the official records all agreed that there simply could not be a sunken U-boat and crew at that location.

"Over the next six years, an elite team of divers embarked on a quest to solve the mystery. Some of them would not live to see its end. Chatterton and Kohler, at first bitter rivals, would be drawn into a friendship that deepened to an almost mystical bond of brotherhood, with each other and with the drowned U-boat sailors - former enemies of their country. As the men's marriages frayed under the pressure of a shared obsession, their dives grew more daring, and each realized that he was hunting more than the identities of a lost U-boat and its nameless crew.

"Author Robert Kurson's account of this quest is at once thrilling, emotionally complex, and written with a vivid sense of what divers actually experience when they encounter the dangers of the oceans's underworld. The story of Shadow Divers often seems too amazing to be true, but it all happened, 230 feet down, in the deep blue sea."
 

Forum statistics

Threads
107,290
Messages
3,033,134
Members
52,748
Latest member
R_P_Meldner
Top