e-bay vets-which measurement is more reliable?

[gekisai29]

as in a my prior post the inner circumference measuremets given by the sellers seem to have no relation to the manufacturers size. which do you find to be more reliable?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I find the manufacturer's labeled size to be more reliable ... only because eBay sellers can be a bit sloppy in the way they measure a crown's inner circumference. They can err in both directions.

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[Hemingway Jones]

Here, here, to what Marc said, though qualify that with hats that shrink or mysteriously expand through time. Or perhaps previous hatters reblocked hats and left the original sizes inside. How's that for clarity!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

It's just as Hemingway says. You should consider buying one of those hat stretchers made of cedar. They're all over eBay, and our gentlemen hatters sell them too, I believe.

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[Dixon Cannon]

It's a crap shoot.

..let's face it. I have a stack of hats that do not fit because of measurement miscalculations. I try to error on the safe side by only ordering a hat that is larger than my measured 7 3/8. It is amazing what a couple of folder index cards can do to a hat size! It is true though - hats seem to expand and shrink over time - must be environmental conditions. I've had 'em stretched and by the time I wear it, it is shrunk back again. In the end it seems my hair length becomes the determining factor!!!
-dixon cannon

 

[adamgottschalk]

Circumference

First couple of hats I bought, I went by the stated size alone. Since, I only buy a vintage hat if I can get inner circumference measure. I'm 23" around the head. Every hat I've bought where the seller said 22.75-23" fits me like a charm. Some 7 3/8 hats are too big, some are too small for me. But a 23" hat fits me like a glove.

 

[gekisai29]

It is beyond belief that something so simple as a hat size should be so difficult!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Vintage shoes -- men's and women's -- can be just as tricky.

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[scotrace]

and as icky.

lol












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[jamespowers]

It is beyond belief that something so simple as a hat size should be so difficult!

Hmmm..... That is the only area where I have not had one problem. [huh] Perhaps I am lucky.

Regards,

J

 

[gekisai29]

perhaps legislation is in order under a consumer or mental health protection statutes

 

[Twitch]

I also do not bid on anything with size only listed as "22.5 inches" or "Euro size 57" or whatnot. Even with manufacture sizing I can vary 1/8 inch and still be OK due to who knows what.

 

[Arctichighlandr]

Measuring circumference verses length and width.

I thought I'd revive this thread. Vintage sizes tend to be unreliable because of the variety of sizing charts used and shrinkage over time and stretching by owners.

I'd been relying on asking sellers for circumference for determining size and found it not that reliable. I then added requests for inside length and width and used an ellipse calculator to calculate circumference as well. The range between the two methods of determining circumference varied form about .25" to nearly 2.0" for the same hat - with the majority having a difference of .75-1.0 inches

So I decided I needed to measure a new hat of known dimensions myself and examine the variables. I just acquired a brand new Akubra Lawson and decided to try measuring the circumference around the sweat band using a few different methods and also measuring length and width a couple ways and plugging it into an ellipse calculator and comparing the results to the actual size.

My head measurement is 25.5" which is a size 7 1/2 in the Akubra size chart. Akubra's size chart indicates size 7 1/2 = 23 1/2" = 60cm (60cm/2.54cm/inch= 23.622") or closer to 23 5/8". I'd guess the latter 60cm size is what they use being an Aussie maker. Also this Akubra 7 1/2 is just a tad loose suggesting also the 60 cm is correct.

Measuring inside of this hat around the sweatband with all below methods all measured 22.75" the 1st time and 22.625" the second time.
1) cloth tape measure holding inch by inch and keeping straight and
2) expanding a double heavy paper strip (double thick strips of 24# weight paper) inside as far as possible and measuring length and
3) expanding a springy leather belt inside the sweat band and then measuring the length.

This would suggest that any circumference measurement carefully done would be nearly one inch smaller than actual size! If so by just adding 3/4-1" to the circumference given by the seller (assuming done accurately- big if) it would give a reasonable measurement of the true size of the hat in relation to the known size of one's head.

I thought some of the difference between sellers measured circumferences and circumference base on their given length and width might have been due to some measuring seam to seam inside distance as opposed to measuring across the inside of the hat - sweat to sweat. So I duplicated this to see how this would affect the calculated circumference.

Measuring length and width seam thread (brim to sweat band stitching) to seam thread across the inside of this hat yielded: 8.50" x 7.0" = 24.46" [using the ellipse circumference calculator URL http://www.csgnetwork.com/circumellipse.html ]. Which gives a circumference about 7/8"-1" larger than the actual size and probably accounts for the wide range.

Measuring length and width from the inner part of the sweat band across the inside of this hat yields: 8 3/16" [8.1875] x 6 11/16" [6.6875] = 23.484" using the ellipse circumference calculator. This is within about 1/8" of actual size and seems fairly reasonable for determining size.

Using both methods together (and describing to the seller how the length/width measurement should be taken) should give a reliable way to verify fit in relation to one's head size.

It does not work in some cases however and I'm not sure why. In some instances the sellers measured circumference and the calculated length/width circumference are within 1/4" (when the measured circumference should be 3/4"-1" less than the calculated one). It could be that some sellers simply give a circumference measurement from a hat chart that corresponds to the hat size rather than going through the hassle of actually measuring the hat. Or they just measured incorrectly. Or perhaps there is some other factor involved that I've missed.

I'm very surprised that my direct measurements of the circumference were consistently nearly an inch shorter than the hat design circumference. I'm guessing this is because the sweat band gives some when it is placed over a hard head and that is what the hat size is designed for. Whereas when measured off the head it is fully relaxed/constricted and slightly smaller. But if so why is the direct circumference measurement around the sweat band - without any fudge factor thrown in - generally used to guess fit when buying a hat off ebay? Have I missed something?

Perhaps one of our hatters can jump in here and provide some insight?

 

[RBH]

I try to make sure I can see the size tag on the hat. I bought a hat once that the seller said was a 7 1/2, it arrived a 7 1/4.
So sometimes it just a toss up.

:eusa_clap p.s. Marc I LOVE YOUR AVATAR!!!!!:eusa_clap

 

[adamgottschalk]

I thought I'd revive this thread. Vintage sizes tend to be unreliable... (snip, great details)

Thank you sincerely for this excellent rundown. I am often perplexed by the names of hat sizes and their variations. I would say, not being a hatter, that one of the major factors to consider aside from simple circumference is the actual shape of a person's head. One used to see "7 3/8, long oval" and other such terms on hats. Getting my first hat from Art Fawcett was a trip; he sends you a "conformer" which is a plastic, disc-like mechanism that has lots of little moveable tabs around its circumference. One loosens all the tabs, puts it around the head, then has someone else tighten them all around your noggin (in the same spot roughly where you'd wear your hat); Art gets, in this way, not just the circumference, but the actual shape of your head (divots and all), making for the best-fitting fedora I've ever worn.

 

[mjbrekke]

I've found that sizes tend to be reasonably accurate, though I agree that there is variation between manufacturers and that there is probably shrinkage over time. Generally, though, the marked size tends to correspond to circumference within what I would consider to be reasonable tolerances--close enough that some gentle stretching or a card inside the sweatband can take care of the fine tuning in terms of circumference.

Of much greater concern for me, though, is the shape. I cannot wear a regular oval; in most brands, I'm an extra long oval. For that reason, I've found that the circumference measurement is of no use. I ask sellers for inside front-to-back and side-to-side measurements. Those measurements are much easier to make accurately (circumference is devilishly hard, I think), and they've helped me find some hats that fit extremely well, rather than leaving me feeling like my head's been in a vise.

 

[44forrest]

All things considered

I am a 7 1/2 in 60 cm headsize measurement but with the ability to expand one size with a hat stretcher or by applying water to a hatband and the surrounding felt and wearing until dry, I can make due with a hat size either size of 7 1/2. It means, on occasion, a significant amount of time working with the hat but that's just getting aquainted time. Courtship you might call it. Exerting your will on a hat is what makes it yours. I wish you all a long and happy relationship. Great thing about hats is they don't get jealous, but like a woman they do get stiff toward you if left unattended for too long.