Finally, I can compare the Optimo with the belly beaver...

[Fedora]

I got in a hat a few days ago, from an Optimo owner who I have been conversing with. He wants to remain anonymous, so I won't say who the owner is. He doesn't hang out here, but at COW. This was brought about by our discussions of comparing the felt on these hats. He wanted a comparison, and so did I. We were interested in how close the felt of both hats were to one another. I am of course, talking about the Optimo nutria/beaver blend, since I owned 3 of the rabbit blend Optimos. Now, first off, the Optimo was exactly what I expected it to be. Superb, in felt and workmanship. You can't argue that fact at all. The colors are close, but not identical, and you get that floating ribbon on the Optimo. Both use good quality sweats(looks to be made by the same company), and the ribbon on both was very good. With that said, let us talk felt. The beaver stands alone, and to date, IMO, is the most expensive looking felt, available for new hats. I am sure it is due to it not being a blend, but homogenous. I would compare it to the panama hats that are for sale. A fino fino, compared to a super fino. That is the difference to my way of thinking. I think the beaver bodies are the finest felt available today. I could not say that, until just a few days ago. I can say it now, with honesty. Would the average Joe recognize the difference? Nope. Only folks that have seen and handled scores of different felted hats. I have to be honest, it is gratifying to know that I have something most hat wearers will never own. And, that pleases me.LOL Just like it pleases me that I have a mandolin(my father's) that can't be owned by anyone else. Or one like it. The price of the beaver hats limits most folks, and it also seems you have to be on good terms with the hatter before he will even sell you one. That is ok. There are hordes of fine hats out there for everyone else. regards, Fedora

 

[rayk]

Fedora:

I can appreciate how difficult it is to describe the visible and tactile qualities of these two felts...but would you consider trying? I've contemplated buying a custom hat from Optimo, and am very likely to do so for the very reason that words alone make accurate comparisons difficult to comprehend and appreciate. Sorry for the difficult request

 

[SHARPETOYS]

Fedora,
Is the beaver felt soft and thin like the Optimo ?

 

[Fedora]

By all means buy the Optimo. It is worth the price of admission. This was not intended as an insult toward Optimo. Not that you took it this way, but I wanted to make sure this is known. I am not good at describing what you asked, and you would have to have both hats in hand to see, or feel the difference. I could verbally describe the difference between and Optimo and a Federation, no problem at all. Ok, one thing that grabbed me was the absence of guard hairs on the beaver. Now, normally, you can have guard hairs that are not apparent because they have been pounced and ironed smooth. But, if you wet an area of the hat, and agitate the felt just a little, the guard hairs will show themselves. Always. I have found guard hairs on the Optimo, but none on the beaver. And I have worked with 4 other beaver hats, wet blocking them, and to date, not a single hair. Of course, I understand that it is almost impossible to keep every single guard hair out of felt, but the finest felt will have so few that it is hard to find them. Many hats are loaded with guard hairs. It is like coffee beans. The finest coffee has hand picked beans, and this separates it from the excellent coffees. The Optimo is not loaded with these hairs, so some effort was made in the sorting process to get most of them out. More effort was made with the beaver, and this is a sign of higher quality. The fact that only belly beaver was used in the beaver hat also points to the quality, and when you can see the lengths went to in avoidance of guard hairs, this finalizes it IMO. There is a tactile difference between the two felts. There is a visual difference as well. I hope you buy an Optimo, they are worth the price, and then perhaps you can do a better job of the visual/tactile differences. The trouble is, once you get to comparing high quality hats, it helps to have handled the vintage stuff, so you can have something to use as a ruler. Hopefully I have not confused the issue. Fedora

 

[Fedora]

Is the beaver felt soft and thin like the Optimo ?

The beaver is a little thicker than the Optimo. The beaver also has more body due to the denseness/thickness of the felt and not stiffener, but it is soft and floppy. With this said, I must also say that I got in one beaver body that has just a bit of stiffener added, and I prefer less. In fact, I don't think pure beaver needs stiffener at all. When I ordered my beaver hat, I specified just as little stiffener as possible. I was told that the hats were made with a stiffness factor of .42, which is dress hat stiffness. This is greek to me, and I don't want to get in over my head. Both hats feel soft, with the beaver giving you an extra sensation, of.....velvet. That is what comes to mind. I think anyone that has handled lots of hats will come to the same conclusion, as I think the difference is obvious. I hope Art can get up with fedoralover at some time and let him chime in on his impressions. Or Andykev, since he has owned many hats. Only thing is, the hat that fedoralover got is the hat with the added stiffener, so the comparison may not be good, but the feel would be the same. Fedora

 

[rayk]

Thank you. You've done a terrific job of elaboration. I most certainly shall buy an Optimo; many whose opinions I respect have endorsed Optimo so I must believe them to be hats of quality. Two more questions: what are guide hairs? Is wetting and rubbing a small area of felt in an attempt to demonstrate these hairs advisable for the uninitiated?

 

[Andykev]

I agree with Fedora. The OPTIMO is probably the finest dress hat, which at $400, lets you pick color, ribbon, brim width, crown height, blocking, etc. You also get a nice custom quality hatbox.

I DO NOT believe the Optimo is better than the BEAVER hat you have, but I suspect the ratio of cost is probably 2 1/2 Optimos to one Beaver. You get what you pay for.
Since I have NEVER bought a felt over $400 ....I consider these Optimo's everyday wear hats, just like shoes.

So far, the $1000 price range I have only done twice - and that was for panama's.

So, even the Optimo price is over some people's head. When someone admires my hat, and ask's how much? I offset from their face if they are eating, as they surely spit food when they see my hat cost $400!

Someday I'll buy a good BEAVER. But so far I have been happy with most of my expensive (Silver Beaver 50) vintage.

Steve, I am still afraid to send it to you to look at.....you won't send it backLOL

 

[Zane]

Rayk, you have the words of a skilled schoolmaster. I on the other hand have spent the last 10 years just trying to get to the point of getting a high school equivalent diploma. I finally reached my goal last year. Now I seek words constantly and envy your ability to disperse them so freely as I have to seek a dictionary to make my craving subside.

I think I know a little about this post and want to try to be helpful. Mind you , I am trying to be factual here and not bragardly.

I spent a good long time blocking and pouncing hats and I guess I have handled more than most on here and yet own fewer then any of you . I am now getting up in years and think back to folks like old Lantern Jaw Hayes and how he was the finest cabinet maker in 3 states yet he lived in a shack about the size of mine and a lot worse looking. He made the finest crafted furnishings that money could buy and was a gifted artisan, yet his family never had a coffee table or a china hutch nor anything to sit on one or to put in it.

Guard hairs are typically on a beaver but more so on nutria and other rodents. They are primarily on the backs of beavers and pretty much all over a nutria pelt.

I dare say a person new to hats ort to be able to check his hat out and putting a little bit of water (cold preferred) on the inside of the crown and rubbing it around will not harm the hat.

I would like to digress some now about fur types and such.

I think over time and especially as commercial establishments bought up smaller hatters that profit became far more important than quality and that is what causes things to be as they are today.

Over a half of a life time of messing with hats I have never seen any good beaver body for a dress hat that had any guard hairs in it at all. On the other hand I have seen western hats that not only had guard hairs but really needed them to stiffen up the body more.

I have worked with furs that claimed to contain every thing from Mink to Sable to Chinchilla to you name it. Truth is they probably did have some of it because some hatter ask it to be so and the felt maker tossed in a hand full to make it so. that said the addition of such fur parts did not improve the hat any at all and in fact to a un recognizable extent hurt it as these types of fur do not make good felt. The reason for not making a good felt is that they do not have the right "DNA" . A good felt needs to be more than just Beaver or just Hare or Rabbit. A good felt needs to be a good blend of the correct proportions of the right mix. Now please do not think me to suppose I am a body maker as I am not --That is an ENTIRELY different trade than hat making-- but I still know some things. I know that each time a body maker make a batch they have to test and re test it to get it right as fur differs each time it comes in.once they get the mix just so then they can run till they break in to a new lot of fur. Even belly beaver will get mixed with other belly beaver and how much of each will depend on how fat the fur is. The more it is carroted the faster it will be and it has to be slowed down with slower fur or it will just keep shrinking on you.

There should be some point when the body is stabilized and does not want to shrink much more when it is fixed. Same thing with Rabbit, Hare or Nutria. It all has to be stabilized by an artist that only has any ability at all because he learned it in the school of hard knocks.

I know Fedora mentioned about no one at Stetson any more from past, well that is a pity as they also then have lost a world of knowledge and will inevitably fall by the way side as their hats will not fool real hat wearers and folks will know they are not any good any more.

Same is unfortunately true for most other hat companies . They have to make a profit and they see good business as making all they can on any single plate of beans and fail to see that the restaurant will eventually close due to it all.

There is absolutely noting wrong with small commercial hat companies but they should not be confused with custom hand made hatters also. The two generally serve two separate markets and both provide a valuable service if it is all done right. When knowledgeable folks get hats or even novice people then they will realize over a short period what is good and what is not and what they do and do not like about a hat.

The nice thing about a custom hatter is that they are generally more versatile and receptive to your desires and also more geared to handle them. A commercial hatter tends to be a little more restricted in that they have to pay for a lot of equipment and while they may wish to do custom work and certainly can entertain a lot of request , they are still restricted and kinda caught between the devil and deep blue sea and have to remain in business first and then it just gets to be a juggling contest.

The small hatter on the other hand while he can be more discerning on his selection of what he works with in terms of bodies and sweats and such, he may be limited in terms of special finishes and trims and the like he can do as some things simply require a machine to do or takes so long other wise it cannot be done profitably. I will defer to a post other day about welting an edge on a hat with a manganese plate. In today's world ( I speak of today as really if it were 10 years ago and it has got worse not better I am positive) , no one can do welting with the old plate method but all use a welting machine that is a sewing machine that just turns the welt, sews in under or over with a special foot and then trims it with a cutter all in one fell swoop. That takes all of about 5 minutes to add a welted edge where as it would take 2+ hours for a skilled hatter using the old ways.

In the end some folks just like that factory stamped out look that you get with a steam press block or a finest sewing machine. Lets face truth here how many people are left that can really create a hat as or more beautifully by hand as they can with a machine that has precision duplicable processes ? Well I guess that is a rhetorical question and needs no answer.

I guess in a perfect world there should be room for both kinds of hatters and customers for each also. Sad truth is there is little room for the old ways left as there are few willing to pay for it and few that can produce it if it is paid for. I have often seen a skilled hatter put in 6-7 and more days into a single hat and of that I have seen a finest hand pounced hat that will involve nothing but the hatter sitting for 3 days and pouncing it by hand with the finest cloth and not allowing for any machine to touch the crown or brim that may scratch a delicate finish. Now that is to describe the finest of the fine in terms of finish and the result is a hat unlike you will probably have a reason to encounter very often as it is not an often thing that anyone knows often feel of such a hat nor afford to pay the cost of seeing such a masterpiece work.

I have read after many o these forums for weeks now and I know many love fine headwear and maybe so many have not sought it nor appreciate it as much as Fedora seems to do. I have heard him describe the feel of a fine hat as almost like velvet and it is true that a prime beaver hat will have this feel without powder or grease but you can spend 3-4 days with nearly worn out emery cloth and make a really fine beaver hat to feel more than almost like velvet it will fell better than velvet.

I had not seen such a hat as I have described in some time but I did see one a while back and it was a site to behold but a feel that words cannot describe. A best quality hat will have a nap left to it but it will be so dense it is like velvet for sure and so short it almost does not have height. That is not to say that a fine beaver hat is not a fine feeling thing and almost like velvet is surly a very good finish. A hat that has a premiere finish is in a category above and beyond that and is so special you will not completely forget one if you ever touch it.

There are many fine hats out there from many fine old vintage companies and the reason being was the quality of the fur they got was just better stuff (sometimes) but to get the ultimate hat you have to ask for it from someone that really knows and loves hats and that you have relationship with that will warrant you getting the respect you deserve and the hat you ask for and then a little bit or a whole lot more.

I like Fedora advise you to shop your hatters of choice and find what suits you best and then I will advise you one step further, if you ever desire a hat that will pale ALL others by comparison and you are in a position to afford it ask your hatter for the ultimate and see what they has to offer you. I think you will find you have some really fine hats already but none will compare to a masters work if you request them to do their ultimate for you then choose a color and a crease and then allow the artist to paint. No amount of money will get you as good of a hat as an inspired hat maker that you ask to get creative as his reward is not in money at that point if his bills are paid and the stress is off he will work for pride not profit.

 

[rick5150]

I DO NOT believe the Optimo is better than the BEAVER hat you have, but I suspect the ratio of cost is probably 2 1/2 Optimos to one Beaver. You get what you pay for.

That is correct, to a degree, but it seems as though we are comparing different hats.

Unless something has changed, the first GH Sterling Beaver hat is offered at a 50% discount. Mine was just under $550 with all the bells and whistles. This brings this type of hat a little closer to the Optimo, but I also thought I read that Optimo offers a 100% beaver for $700. This makes the GH cheaper than the Optimo with the exception being if you are planning on buying two hats, the Optimo will average out cheaper, I guess.

 

[Zane]

I do not know any thing about Optimo hat company or their pricing or any thing else except one thing, they seem to be a small commercial hatter that produces a very fine looking hat.

I know the gentleman that seemed to have owned that company before them was a well respected hatter in all the old circles.

I can tell you some things I do know. Looks can be deceiving if you are looking into a very high quality hat. I take into account how some folks says that Panamabob has the most wonderful of straw hats and his prices are so good and I believe it fully and they appear to be the best PERIOD! This is comparing hats and not people as I know only what I read from this man.

There seems to be a hatter on the big island and he seems to offer the same hat or a very similar one and he benefits from maybe more equipment and such but charges a couple valuable appendages for them.

Now I have not seen one of PanamaBob's hats but in picture and with Art blocking them, I simply do not think you could find a better hat. From what I read of Art he seems to put the kind of love and attention into his craft that makes it pay off not so much in money but in craftsmanship.
I have read after many on forums that either complain or address the lengthy time it took to make a hat and almost acted like it was a crime that teh hatter took the time to make the hat just perfect.

I have not understood this concept living in a time and age where so many are in a hurry to get old and grumpy like me. I prefer to slow down smell the roses and to live longer and try to be happy each moment.

With a world full of wars and killings and a nation full of obesity and fast food and such, will we try to run off what few craftsmen we have left and allow the hat business go by the way side in to a drive through hat business also ?????

I should hope it is not true. If it is true the next thing we will find is folks paying top dollar for a commercially produced hat and then spreading propaganda that it is really the finest hat they have ever owned seen or touched and in fact is really the finest hat available. If we continue down this road the next step will be them justifying the price and the excellence of the hat based on the finely printed paper box it comes in.

You think I am stretching it here ? Well I am not and to point you to see this better look at Stetson.

I have remained in contact with a few old Cowboy hatter friends of 30 years and have as a result met many that are up and coming. You may not know it but Stetson has not put themselves out of business but in fact was making a killing up to a few years ago, and it was not with their hat but with a great name and a fancy box. This is a true story. The small hatters out west working the cowboy hat circuit then started building steam and they do not get on the Internet or have any well know name and many have no name at all but only some small home shop and they hit all the rodeo's and over the past 10 years have consistently produced such much higher quality western hats than Stetson has that they have seriously began to damage Stetson. You may think Western is dumb and no one wears tem and in fact it is all the rage.

Luther Johnson parted ways to jump on that circuit himself and now I understand he has so much business he cannot remain a purist custom hatter but has to make hats in advance that meet the criteria of a demanding young wealthy lot of both male and female hat wearers. He now has bought up equipment and is starting to make more of a hybrid of a production hat and a custom hat. I truly hate that fact but enjoy seeing the hat market increase while hating that it increases at the cost of quality and craftsmanship.

I really hope some one will read my words and get from them what I am trying to communicate. I have most difficult time in writing and to make a post like this requires me to open a note pad and spend an hour writing , looking in a dictionary , thesaurus and other references to try to make a clear message. I was recently criticized in a private message for writing one message that was garbled and another that is abundly clear. I am not sure why I would be despised by some for a quick garbled response and by the same person later for making a well worded response that is applicable to a given post but I hope this will improve.

Back to hats. I do not find it offensive for folks to route for their favorite hatter and stand up for them and promote their product nor their service. I think we all should try to find good things in all people and look for a balanced view of quality hatters on a hat forum.

That said, I think some people should not post opinions of hats based on price if they did not purchase a hat to know the price. I guess I get really concerned when the best endorsement you can give your favorite hatter is that they include a nice hat box. Now I think the person that makes hat boxes should get that credit and as I understand it those nice boxes cost about 15 dollars a piece now a days so to try to steer a person to a hat based on its wrapper is not a very informed comparison.

I am not being argumentative her just factual. To prove it I will set up the entire house with drinks on me and buy the bartenders one also. James what was that drink you like again now?

Honestly I have said all of this to address several minor points of contention and try to ease friction before it occurs and still stand for undeniable facts about quality hats.

When you are in a hat comparison you have to compare the hat, not the box not the hat maker and not the cost.

That being said to be fair to all we seem to know the exact prices of some hats and only what one or the other of you paid for the other hat. I want to say in closing I have been ask to either post intelligent post or not post at all by a person I consider a dear friend and I want to try to follow that. So as intelligently as I can say it, I think if you have a relationship with your custom hand made hatter you will always find appropriate prices for the amount of work you put into your hats regardless of where it is the first hat or the 50th hat you get from him. My dear departed friend used to say never form a business relationship with a man you plan to price out of business or you will want another item from him and he will be gone and no one can then help you. I Truly do know about hats and quality hats and temperamental hatters and I know that a small hatter that is a true craftsman is not motivated by money but instead by his craft and he will always respond to you with pricing you can afford for the best head wear you can own. He has no reason to inflate any price for your first second or third hat but many times has a listed price to cover the persons that demand to pay more or they would never find what his quality hats are really like.

All in all would you find it discouraging to try a first hat out at some extreme discount if you knew you were just getting a taste of an addicting hat that you would have to pay more for you second round? I think if we look at it from a real viewpoint we would find a bit of fallacy in such reasoning. I am positive if we find ourselves in the market for a hat such as I am we will find our custom hatters will make sure we are not only satisfied with our hats quality but also the price for that quality. I personally am going for a hat that has the ultimate in quality and I think my price will be one I find most fair and if I am wrong shortly after Christmas I will tell you so. I think your experience will be most similar if you are a serious consumer and not just a window shopper.

 

[Fedora]

Steve, I am still afraid to send it to you to look at.....you won't send it back

LOL But......I would pay you for it.

I also thought I read that Optimo offers a 100% beaver for $700.

Marc told me that he was quoted 750.00 for a pure beaver from Optimo. At least that is what I think he said. Still, many folks think us insane for paying 400 bucks. The way that I look at it is this way. Many non hat wearing folks ante up the big bucks for a brand name. And, the name on a particular article doesn't always equate with quality, or workmanship. (I am not talking hats here) These folks pay the big bucks so they can wear what is currently in vogue. At least we are actually getting value in real terms for the buck spent on the higher end hats. And we don't have to have the name of the brand on the outside for the world to see and know what we are wearing. Our hats speak for themselves in the appearance of the product. If hats ever became popular again, the only way that this would happen is if there was a sign on the top of the hat, like a prop on a beanie telling the world you were wearing a particular brand of hat. Not a purty visualization.LOL Fedora

 

[Zane]

Fedora I can almost see it now. Folks wearing a Cowboy hat you have made and it having a sign called Fedora and then all the confusion about hat names would appear.

It is not far from that point now when folks want to buy a box more than a hat and that is not to say any thing wrong with a nice hat box or a collectors box either one but when you are reduced to trying to support your favorite hatter with the box they offer it makes you wonder if owning a 1000 hats makes you an expert or just a hoarder. Maybe it makes you both. It would make me insane but only due to the fact I would have to stack them outside the house and they would all ruin.

I would love to have a good collection of hats. No I take that back I would like to follow an example of a customer I helped make a hat for once and I would like to have a collection of good hats as he said there is a huge difference. he pointed out how he had over 300 hats when in college and how he wanted to now have a collection of 300 finest hats. I think of him as I gather he has recently started ordering hats again after an almost 10 year lapse and ordering them in lots of 12 so he can get one a month and that way not have to take all in at once so the wife can beat him with a dough roller.

Brings me to my original point I made earlier, I am more than sure that any one that is wanting more than a single hat can find favorable pricing for it. The best way to find out is to inquire directly and not speculate. I think I can speculate a little more informed as I was around the pricing and making for some time.

Fedora, as I am realizing your insatiable desire for the finest of the fine, and not encouraging you to buy any thing, but as you seem to work some with Gladhatter as I did in past, you should ask him to send you a hand pounced Million X hat some day and look and feel it and give a report on it. They are not only that really great beaver that all that have seen them love so much but they are a lot more. They are of a caliber of workmanship and feel like you will not likely find ever again.

That is not to say you cannot produce the same result yourself as I know it is a learned trade and you seemed to have excelled in it in a short time to a master in your own right. I probably would not make this direct challenge to any one else here but you seem to support the man when others cannot due to what ever reason.

You may find the hat I refer to as not at all a pleasant as I think it is but then again you may find it to be all I speak of. I can tell you this them hats labeled 500X are certainly finer than any hat available that I have seen in 30 years but even they can be out done with a few days of sitting on the porch and just adding nothing but pure love adornment to a hat. If nothing else , here in a couple months when I get me one made I will take it to Wal-Mart and have it took a picture of and send it to you but I guess a picture would just not do it justice.

I wish that feller named Hogg that got that one I seen was a member here and would show his to some of you hat lovers . If the Indiana Jones lovers seen it they would die for one I guess as it was that brown color that they seek.

I hate to be thought of as a horn other but I expect I would hate it worse to see a candle lit and try to cover it with a bushel. I though this was what a lounge was all about was to com to and get to sit and jaw with friends and brag about your prettiest gal or best hat.

Can any one else step up to the bar and call out drinks for all here? This place could stand a bit of excitement. No reason for any bar brawls and such but surly we can loosen our ties up.

Andykev, you of all people should know the benefit of a shot of good Irish whiskey now why do you not just set us all up a round and lets all tell our favorite stories.

 

[Fedora]

I am curious Zane. What sort of grit would one use to finely pounce a hat? I have been using these circular disks that I used to polish Corian(a synthetic marble) . The grit is so fine that it is almost too smooth. The trouble is, after awhile, it does not seem to add anything to the finish. Suggestions? thanks Fedora

 

[rick5150]

I too, am an advocate of buying the best hat you can afford, but my problem is defining what the "best" is. Once that is done, you have to find someone who can create it for you, and custom items usually do not come cheaply. But you get what you pay for and often a bit more.

I finally ordered a custom hat and received what I consider to be the best hat I will own since it looks the way I want it to, it feels great, the craftmanship is top-notch and even the ribbon and bow are perfect. Did I mention I love the color of both the ribbon and the hat and the contrast between the two is perfect - at least to my liking. I am not saying I will never buy another hat, but I will probably not have to buy another hat of that quality, since it should last my lifetime.

I have to agree with Zane and those who wear hats for more than "dress up" as stated on another site. (I really wish I hadn't read that post because it makes us hat wearers look foolish to the average person reading the posts.) The hats should be compared by felt quality since all other aspects can be added or changed later. I do not have 300 hats, but maybe 9 or 10 and the 9 or 10 hats that I have now are better quality than the 9 or 10 hats I had a year ago. In my opinion, this is too many hats for my needs, since you can only wear them one at a time.

Zane, do you plan on going back into the hat industry any time soon? We can never have too many hatters around. As you have read, I want to keep updating my collection to higher quality hats and diversity is a great thing. If you want to experience the Optimo in person, I can send mine to you for examination so you can better understand the hype.

Also, I have asked the question of several hatters and was wondering what information you could add. I am looking for a top quality water repellant, that will not provide stiffness. I am pretty sure I have the answer I need, but I am always willing to learn from those who know more than I do. In the instance of hats, that pretty much means everybody

Thanks!

 

[Andykev]

ZANE POSTED: " Andykev, you of all people should know the benefit of a shot of good Irish whiskey now why do you not just set us all up a round and lets all tell our favorite stories."


Sorry. I never touch the stuff. Fire water that is.

Stand me a good Pale Ale, or a good deep red wine with my meal.


Zane, I think your past (lenghty) posts have been very nice, quite pleasant. I liked your points.

Oh, and I don't judge a hat by it's box...that is too much like a book by it's cover..

I simply mentioned that as one of the "added features" of that seller.

Put the hat on, feel, look, smile. If it is to your liking..that is what matters.

 

[SHARPETOYS]

Andykev Wrote

Oh, and I don't judge a hat by it's box...that is too much like a book by it's cover..

Yea! that would be a dumb think to do Those Optimo hat boxes are real nice and for a "modern" felt hat i think they are the best hats out there. When i get one of mine out of there nice hat box its brings a smile to my face because i only have pleasent memories of buying the Optimo hat.

 

[Zane]

Hi Fedora and Rick5150, I am going to try to address both your concerns here in this post.

Fedora, many trains of thought on what paper to use. I know cowboy hatters that use 80 grit to start with then go to 300 and when they hit the stiffener and it starts turning white the go back to the 80 and cut them hats down ultra thin so no good beaver or fur is left but a hard shell under the fur is all that is left then they lure the hat( do not know correct spelling of leering but I think its correct here.

luring a hat involves misting it with denatured alcohol ( bottom of brim and inside crown first always ) and then setting it a fire. Immediately turning it over while shill very warm and doing same to out side and top of brim. This removes all "fuzz" a quick vac job with a shop vac and then they put a scratch pad on a vibrator sander and try to bring up some fur again but little left by then. Then they get out a grease cloth or in cowboy hats often no more than a 3-n-1 oil on a used up grease cloth. They grease them fairly heavy ( heavy being just a little more than the almost none typically used on a fedora )

Now that all said back to a fedora . Most start with 320 on a vibrator sander and then go to a 600 and then an 800. all on a vibrator sander and then some lure it to get that really slick felt finish. Now that is all in Small hatter circles and then in small commercial shops may have an electric wheel and just use 320 and spin the hat and hold the paper. lightly against it.

Now I want to go a step further . Luther Johnson would do the 320- 600- 800 all on a vibrator sander typically and it gives a fine finish and most just love it. I can not speak with facts here but I a will assume that the silver belly that RayK got was pounced principally by Luther and was truly an extra fine job and a beautiful hat hands down just super fine period. That would make it a 500X job and again as nice a hat as you would ever see any where. BUT

And Fedora please do not take this as me tooting Charlie Swindall's horn as it is not its just different approaches to hatting and how the love of the art can make a hat beyond fine.

I guess Charlie will be pouncing most hats in the 500X range about like you seen in Teh RayK hat and again its so fine any one would agree it is a hat beyond anything they have seen. Now the way Charlie used to pounce them and the way he done that One I seen in person for that Hogg dude Who's name I now think is a variation of your own and is Fedora something on some forum, is to first take a reserve body of 1000X or greater quality that is hand selected and reserved for the hatters personal use generally and then he would pounce them using nothing but 600 grit paper from the get go and not just any paper but some extra fine automotive cloth wet and dry emery paper. The pouncing its self starts with that hat on the block and dry ( I have seen many on forums as how do you get the hat off the block) here is also the answer, you pounce it . he would pounce it for a full day or day and a half literally an entire shift of nothing but watching the world go lazily by and pouncing a hat. then of course it is fully released from block after a couple hours or less and then the next day he would pounce it just in his hands with same piece of 600. The 600 is really about 1000 by then and then he would iron the brim out and then cut it and then he would start pouncing again and pounce another half a day or full day and study the hat under a lighted magnifying glass and make sure it is flawless beyond flawless. then he would take it to the brim flange and sand bagger and set a curl in the brim and then bring it of look at it an say well it just needs pounced a little bit and then it will be ready for a finish. he then will spend maybe 3- 4 more hours pouncing it with that almost worn out paper and by then you can see that twinkle come in his eye and while he is not about to let you touch that hat yet , it is about ready to touch and man you want to touch it as you know what it is and it is addicting to feel. There will be a little bit of nap but it is so short it is not measurable and so tight it is just a monolithic plane with curvatures and valleys from brim to shining crown .

Now I left out a lot of processes in between like flanging it on the bagger and just some neat little details that you have to learn to make a work of art over just a hat. Well any way at the end of about 7 days after he pulled that hat over the block he has it now ready for a sweat band. There are sweat bands , then there are roan sweat bands then there are USA MADE military grade sheep roan sweat bands and a hat like this will get one of them.

He will for this quality of hat have a conformer fit already established and have him a block of wood or high density special foam core just the exact shape of the owners head and he will mark ( not measure -- very important he has told me a million times never measure if you can mark). so once he establishes the exact length of the sweat and ( has predetermined by measuring the block and make sure it agreed with the external head measure supplied) , he will cut the correct length off one side of the sweat, then he will slid out 1 inch of extra read Most important for properly placed sweat) and then cut the other side to a precision cut. he will then start kneading the turn ( cannot recall the name of that scoring that is set into the ultimate sweats) and make sure that extra inch of read will fully make it into the welting. Then he will insert a ferrule on to the read and begin his lock stitch and start drawing it together. ( you will see pictures from a Cow post of a small commercial hat company with a stack of sweats pre cut and pre sewn and the tape on the rear holding them to together where they were or will be stitched) no tape will hold a properly readed sweat together and it has to be lock stitched in first to hold it then tape for the final stitching to be nice and smooth. This process takes a couple hours to do just so . It can be done in 2 minutes but not on a hat of this caliber all of it takes time and plenty of it. then the ferrule has to be centered and the lock stitch completed and then repeated numerous times to hold that enormous pressure it is exerting on the sweat at this point. Then the scotch tape or masking tape on the rear to make the shit all smooth and then it is either hand or machine stitched together. In the past Charlie would only use a sewing maching that had a hand crank on it and not use any electrical devise but to burn a light bulb or heat the sand bagger. I guess that may change as times have changed and I machine that minor detail is not critical. ( I am talking a time now when he had a 30 iron stove and did not use any electrical irons also and before that he even used to use a bucket of sand heated over a fire for the sand bagger. He used to refuse to use any electrical tools and still call it a hand made hat but that too is changing a little bit with electrical irons and such.

Now back to main point once the sweat is set into the hat and it is just so as it always Will be when you have the skills he has developed, he will start a tack stitch by hand that is usually white upholstery thread and then make them about 3/4 inch long all the way around the hat. If it is an Indiana Jones hat such as the brown one I described he may have blocked it a half size larger and then does not flange it for any sweat band as it would require a reverse taper and then he would actually shrink the bottom a bit to give it that ever so slight reverse taper and make the sweat fit. Any ways back on track now, once the sweat is tack stitched in and this is a precision job and has to be tacked in a bout a 3 /64's lower than it will sit finished and is the most difficult job in making a hat and making it correct. ( bare in mind you wear the hole hat but only the sweat touches you head so it is also the most important job. Now many think a sweat is a sweat is a sweat and there are many good ones from about 3 USA companies that I know are still around but only one for the ultimate hat. So any way he will now turn the sweat out of the hat and begin sewing through the welting about an 1/8 - 3/16 down on the welt and this is determined by many factors where to stitch it at as it is ultra important again to the over all fell of the hat. The welt makes a shock absorber and also suspends the hat from the head and is all the comfort of the hat to the wearer. I cannot emphasize this enough. ( now realize there are machines that will sew in a sweat in ultra small stitches till it nearly cuts the hat to machines that are made for this that can sew in a sweat in 2 minutes and uses 1 inch stitches or 1/3 inch or as set but his again is commercial lines hats)

Now comes out the head shape block and the Tollicker and he will work that hat on with that tollicker for hours till it conforms perfectly to the exact shape the conformer revealed of the customers head.

Now continuing on here and answering more than you ask , at this point he would on these so called Million X hats stitch the liner into the hat and usually just tack it in 4- 6 places as this is all it can need if it is a high thread count satin liner. ( the one I seen other day actually was Bridal satin and about a 700 thread count and a very impressive liner).

Now comes the ribbon. unless the customer ahs specified an exact ribbon color and width and type of bow, then this hat may be studied for a couple hours more and numerous widths of ribbon and various colors be tried on it for looks and maybe a ribbon will be custom dyed for an exactly perfect effect. no regular ribbon will work here, not Polyester, not acetate not petersham belting, not even a regular rayon cotton blend but a very special woven ribbon that is not vat dyed but made on a shuttle loom and ( again a special line of work not a hatters job but a specialized field )--- You make think that ribbon maker, sweat band maker and for sure Body makers would know about hats but they do not. They do not know a spoon full all put together and yet a hatter must know a general overview of all them other trades to make sure he can control his final product. --- Now once a ribbon width and color is chosen the final sewing starts. Here again you can use a band tacker and a person good on a band tacker with fair quality grosgrain can sew on a ribbon at the rate of 30 per hour or more. This ribbon is not even ready to sew on at this point and in fact is about to be swirled as a first fact . I will stop going in to such detail about how to swirled and stuff and hit high points now. Next the bow has to be considered. It can be a single bow a double bow or a triple bow and it can be a specialized bow like that flying V that Dalex has a great tutorial on the Cow site I think it was or it can be a special trade mark bow or something simple but this process will take 3- 4 hours from start to finish and longer if a custom dye job is in order.

Once the final ribbon is sewn on the hat is ready for creasing and I will leave off the details here yet again. now after all that is said and done there is inspection after inspection and in many shops about 50 other steps I left out using this that or other machine and in a custom shop maybe a hundred small details I left out and all very important for the ultimate hat.

All that done then the brushing starts. He will take a hat brush and will give the finish brushing to the hat and will brush it for close to an hour literally. I do not mean you typical brush of the dust quickie but a vigorous brush beating and then reverse nap brushing and after all lint and everything is all disappeared then a final left handed brushing or if it was a really old body maybe a right hand brushing if it was a hand felted hat or one that had reverse equipment. At the end of about 10 days of very hard manual labor and loving care and 25 years of experience you will have a hat that is truly ready for a feel.

Do not think you are about to touch that hat unless you wash your hands first as you are not. Well then you go wash your hands and dry them and you return and he will reach you a hat that is beyond compare in every detail. It will feel like heaven in your hands and when you insert that head shape it will conform to it perfectly just like it will the wearers head.

Well I have honestly left out a 100 details here but I am not a great writer but no doubt I sure do love to write and if I had a person to write I would write a complete book of hat making. I will add this did not touch on special brim curls or derby's , bowlers homburgs ect. but you really ask about pouncing not for all I have written.

Now Rick5150, If you have not died of exhaustion I will try to address your concerns. They are lot simpler.

First off, I want to tell you that Charlie Swindall has probably forgot more about making a hat than I know as he did not do many hats in his last years with the company but was a meet and greet guy and handled the business end and only worked on the ultra high end hats himself and Luther done the others.

That said I will address your concerns as I have kept up with trends and different aspects of the hat business but am not an expert by any means. Water proofing was reserved for western hats in past and it was provided with a massive amount of stiffener and then a ample amount of hat grease. Water proofing now a days is achieved with a Teflon liquid or aerosol spray and this works great till you are ready to do a reblock and then you cannot get it all washed out and it is a problem with a capital P! Luther found an outfit out in Oregon or Colorado or out in there that had a chemist make some good stuff. It is not Teflon and is clear and you can spray it on over and over and not affect the hat in terms of fell or touch yet it becomes fairly impervious to water.

I do not intend to go back to making hats any time soon as I have tried very hard to get a position back with Gladhatter and have been told finally that there is not current position for me.

Knowing Charlie as I do he may change his mind tomorrow an if so I will gladly accept any position he offers and try to impress him which what I have learned during my time off and how I have kept up with trends and am not the uneducated goof I used to be and how that I am qualified now to do more than the least hats and renovations and take out trash and swept floors but I am not above doing any of that as well if he would allow it. They have a great crew right now with numerous family members involved in one way or another and also he has many partner ships or associations with some of the worlds largest firms and if he shuts down part of that action as he says he is doing now, I suppose he will not need me at all if he just concentrates 99% on these top of line custom hand made hats.

Rick, I appreciate your desiring to send me an Optimo to examine and I will be very honest, that I have not seen a hat with the optimo name on it but am extremely familiar with the tools and techniques that they employee to make their hats and also the furfelt that they use to make them from. I will to avoid any confusion say that they make a very nice looking hat and are a valuable asset to the hat seeking community and the forum groups that endorse them.

On a side bar unrelated to any specific hat company, I will entertain you to tell you I have literally seen hat made from 100% dog hair and 100% donkey hair and just about any thing else you can imagine including 100% cashmere. Many hatters of now adays need a competitive edge and go to great lengths to get this that or other novelty felts to entice customers to try it out or to try to romance a repeat customer into a new blend. In the end these novelty felts come and go and so do the owners or managers of the companies and folks end up with hats that had a great name a one time or another and then keep companies like ebay in business as folks seek to get that special hat that they were allured to by the name reputation or the felt as it sounded so good to them at the time or they were prosalyzed(converted sp) into it by the advocates of this.

I am a traditionalist and I do not go chasing rainbows and myths and hold no hard feelings for those that do. You said you got the ultimate hat and I agree with you as I have seen your website and know you have a belly beaver hat. That said I will still advocate that while Belly beaver is the ultimate hat making material that other blends make really fine hats as well for certain purposes. A good example is Nutria, while it is a fine hat making material for a western hat with a ton of stiffener as it has a much courser set of guard hairs that is important to making this type of hat.


I will not touch on the finer points of any fur or blend in this post as I think I have written enough for now but will of course get off here and go write for hours on any number of other subjects.

 

[Panamabob]

Charlie should get you for plagiarism. About 90% of what you've written has been written by him on Hatchat or in personal emails.

 

[Fedora]

Wowsa!!! You are the only hatter that has ever gone into such fine detail. Thank you very much!! I just found out that I know so little. And, I know you are a straight shooter. I was in the retail business for years(a district and division manager) before I gravitated back to cabinet making, and I know, you know exactly what you are talking about. Thanks for the enlightenment. It is so valuable to people like me who piddle with hats. I had to save and print it out for study and future reference. :clap :fedora:

 

[Zane]

Andykev, We could become a mutual admiration society just between us as I sure do like your more eloquent and refined manners and you simple senibility that it comes out in. I never was taken to drink myself either but was just saying it metaphorically more less. This lounge is such a pleasent place to visit and I was just drunken with the delight to expound upon my second favorite obsession. I am addicted to fine hats as the lot of you guys but I never could afford the very well. I have a coupl very nice hats but they are many years old and while in good condition , I would really cherish adding a couple to them. I wear an old hat campng and hiking as it is not like a city hiking enviroment here but a really rugged thing for me to just take my good hats out in it. I envy the person that has more liberty but I just cannot afford to buy many hats.

I guess I would be fit to be tied with excitment if I had a vast collection like you.

I guess I would say all in all it feels real good just to be associated with such a fine group of people as are here in general. I never was a social butterfly and to get to meet new folks and not even leave home and all of them like the same things is really quite a treat and I guess I just want to thank every person on here that has indulged my insatiatable desire to write.