G-Man action shooting

[Curt Dawson]

For those with an interest over on the Smith and Wesson forum we have a discussion on the possibility of starting a competition similar to cowboy action shooting.It would be based on the 1920's -1940 time period of law enforcement.All weapons have to be era correct along with appropriate clothing and holster gear.You can call me "Jelly Bryce"!

 

[DeaconKC]

Curt, you're a stinker! But here's his pic for you anyway!

 

[Story]

You're going to cheese off some folks...

Period shooting styles only?
http://www.gungarage.com/lapolice-revolver-manual.jpg

Or perhaps the British method, with Webleys:
I’ve heard of one officer who would take primed cartridge cases and press the case mouths into blocks of soap, forming a hard soap “bullet”. He would load these into his service Webley. In the garden he would have his servants surround him, armed with a variety of sticks and bludgeons, then at random rush him. Our hero would then respond with well-placed shots to his human targets, giving him practise in reactive accuracy.

 

[Twitch]

I think the idea is great but there could be a minor problem with any full auto long arms and everyone getting licensed. I could imagine Thompsom and BAR competitions that would lose their flavor on semi-auto.

To compete in all the events feasible you'd need pistols, shotguns, rifles, BAR amd Thompson making it kinda pricey to be in. I still like the idea though.

 

[DeaconKC]

Don't forget that most officers still supplied their own guns so Tommy guns and Monitors were rarely seen with the "good guys" unless the department had the $$ for them. Lever guns and semi auto rifles were more common. One thing SASS does that is smart is uses only lead bullets under 1000 fps for safety reasons regarding ricochets.

 

[Chev James]

Want S&W to Make "Indy" Model 1917

I've been trying to interest Smith and Wesson in turning one of their new "classic" Model 1917 .45 ACP revolvers into an "Indiana Jones" special. A problem might be licensing from Lucas Films--but they could probably find a way around that if they don't use the word "Indy" on it. The "Indy 1917" was a stock 1917 with the barrel cut down to four inches. I think the front sight was a gold bead type. I'd like to get one of those new "classic" revolvers, either blued or color case-hardened. I've got a number of Webleys, but the Mark VI has a cylinder shaved for .45 ACP. The ones with unshaved cylinders are getting to be very expensive!

 

[Diamondback]

The event idea sounds cool, I'd be interested if a local group spun-up...

Chev, all they'd really have to do would be put a note on their site about "as seen in... only with S&W factory quality!"

 

[DeaconKC]

Here's a couple of pictures from Vermont Border guards during Prohibition:

 

[Story]

A related thread
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=14810&highlight=police

There's also another thread out there with Prohibition law enforcement photos, some fella was looking for inspiration for his own artwork.

 

[mrswheats]

For those with an interest over on the Smith and Wesson forum we have a discussion on the possibility of starting a competition similar to cowboy action shooting.It would be based on the 1920's -1940 time period of law enforcement.All weapons have to be era correct along with appropriate clothing and holster gear.You can call me "Jelly Bryce"!

I think that's a fantastic idea! If anyone in Ohio wanted to try and start it up, and know the hubby and I would be all for it. I mean, why should the cowboys have all the fun?

 

[Story]

This'll give you a dozen scenarios to shoot -

Cross-Border Robbing
Yank Gang crossed the line to do crimes
By BOB HOLLIDAY

A porous border and an understaffed Manitoba Provincial Police force in 1921 allowed an American band of outlaws to terrorize small Manitoba towns.

The gang always followed the same pattern between the first of 12 heists in Oct. 12, 1921 and the last known robbery on Oct. 24, 1922-- cut the town's telephone and telegraph lines, hit the bank after midnight when few people were awake, blow the safe, grab the money and head back across the border.

The MPP blew an opportunity to nab the gang red-handed when information from Saskatchewan was mishandled.

The MPP were told the gang was going to strike the bank in Pipestone but, according to Winnipeg police historian, Staff Sgt. (Ret.) Jack Templeman, help from the RCMP was refused by MPP Insp. W. G. Clarke, stationed in Melita.

ORGANIZED A POSSE

Const. John Tullock organized a posse of four men who took up a position across the street from the bank's front door. After cutting the communication lines, the gang used an eight-foot length of telephone pole to ram in the back door.

Before the gang could enter the bank, the posse opened fire with 17 shots into the still empty bank allowing the bandits to escape.

The bungle cost several high-ranking MPP officials, including Commissioner J.G. Rattray, their jobs.

Seconded from the Winnipeg police department, one of the first moves by Insp. George Smith was: to hire six constables and two chauffeurs; purchase two used Cadillacs, one equipped with a Thompson sub-machine gun capable of firing 1,000 rounds a minute; 12 high-powered rifles; 24 revolvers and two Lewis machine-guns.

In a letter to Attorney General R. W. Craig, Smith wrote" "The situation was very critical, everything had to be done in a hurry ... there were only seven officers on a boundary over 200 miles ... It was necessary to take steps to protect the lives of the officers engaged in the dangerous work by equipping them with the proper weapons."

The Rev. Thomas Beveridge -- shot in the foot during a Sept. 23, 1921 robbery of the Union Bank of Canada in Melita -- was the first person wounded by the bandits. The reverend was lucky as two men, including a North Dakota town marshal, were later shot and killed.

The gang's future began to unravel in late September and early October when a robbery in West Hope, N.D., turned deadly with the killing of the town marshal.

A few days later, Oct. 4, CPR station manager Paul Matoff (Mateoff) was killed when a gang struck Bienfait, Sask.

Lee Dillege (Dillindge), of Lignite, N.D., had just paid $6,000 for 100 cases of booze when shots rang out, killing Matoff. While Dilledge hid, a man entered the building and calmly took the money from Matoff's body.

As they sped south towards the Canada-United States border, the bandits stopped to cut the lines of communication. Once over the line, the bandits lay in wait for Dillege and stole the booze, and the truck. Dillege told police he and his driver were forced to walk to the nearest town.

Police later found the shell of the burned-out truck but were suspicious of the tale told by Dillege and driver Jim LaCoste. LaCoste later told police that the ambush was staged to cover up the killing of Matoff.

During Dillege's preliminary hearing on a charge of murder, LaCoste testified "Dillege told me to tell the story."

Telegrapher Colin Rawcliffe was the Crown's star witness. He told an Estevan court that he saw Dillege pay the murder victim $6,000 for 110 cases of liquor, a transaction he'd seen five, or six, times. He also vividly remembered the sight of the fatal shot fired from a sawed-off shotgun.

Police officers testified about finding a large quantity of liquor similar to that taken in the robbery at Bienfait from farms owned by Dillege, Abe Martinson and Gens Ness, all of whom were prime suspects in the string of bank robberies. Bottles produced in court included brandy and whiskey which had been shipped from Dominion Distributors, of Regina.

In his charge to the jury, Justice Bigelow said that while there was no direct proof Dillege was connected to the murder of Matoff, the accused knew more than he was willing to admit.

No defence witnesses were called by lawyer William Rose.

After two hours of deliberation, the jury returned a verdict of not guilty.

Coincidentally, the daring bank robberies ended with the arrest of Dillege.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/News/OnceUponACrime/2008/02/24/4871888-sun.html

 

[John in Covina]

No Second Place Winner

NO Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan

If you haven't read it, read it.

It is one of the "know it, learn it, live it, love it" types of books!
Like Cooper's "Principles of Self Defense"

 

[DutchIndo]

Did people really shoot that way back then like in the movies ? I always wondered if they did or it was Hollywood. I can't help but think of the muzzle blast. The accurracy would be hard also especially under great stress.

 

[DeaconKC]

It depends on your definition of movie shooting. Some people are quite cool under stress and others react poorly. Most shooting done for Hollywood movies is horrible. Very few try to use accurate equipment/accessories or the type of shooting styles used by the participants [too much work I guess]. Very little writing was done before the turn of the last century about combat shooting, men like Fitz, Jordan and Cooper are the first ones who actually were well known and wide spread.

 

[Blackjack]

I've been trying to interest Smith and Wesson in turning one of their new "classic" Model 1917 .45 ACP revolvers into an "Indiana Jones" special. A problem might be licensing from Lucas Films--but they could probably find a way around that if they don't use the word "Indy" on it. The "Indy 1917" was a stock 1917 with the barrel cut down to four inches. I think the front sight was a gold bead type. I'd like to get one of those new "classic" revolvers, either blued or color case-hardened. I've got a number of Webleys, but the Mark VI has a cylinder shaved for .45 ACP. The ones with unshaved cylinders are getting to be very expensive!

Cripes... just buy the 17 and have a gunsmith cut the barrel back. Or...the old hand ejector models are pretty easy to come by in 4" anyway.

 

[Blackjack]

NO Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan

If you haven't read it, read it.

It is one of the "know it, learn it, live it, love it" types of books!
Like Cooper's "Principles of Self Defense"

Also "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" by Ed McGivern.

 

[Blackjack]

I think that's a fantastic idea! If anyone in Ohio wanted to try and start it up, and know the hubby and I would be all for it. I mean, why should the cowboys have all the fun?

I've heard of a number of clubs that are or are trying to do like Hogans Alley shoots. That might work for you right there. SOME GOOD ARTWORK ON THE BACKDROPS AND YOUR IN LA... 1929

 

[John in Covina]

Did people really shoot that way back then like in the movies ? I always wondered if they did or it was Hollywood. I can't help but think of the muzzle blast. The accurracy would be hard also especially under great stress.

************
Yes, some people did shoot like that. The pix shown above are the type of a speed draw and fire.

Much like the fast draw gunslinglers it is possible for some individuals to actually have phenominal muscle memory and hit targets from such a crouch type position. Usually they were up against somebody fairly close and with a little practice could hit a body center mass. Jordan was supposed to be able to hit asprin tablets with just such a draw.

Today we prefer aimed fire but in rapid response to an attack in close quarters I think they still teach the FBI speed rock.

 

[carebear]

The modern speed rock is actually very accurately demonstrated by Tom Cruise in "Collateral" in the "Yo homie, is that my briefcase?" scene.

One curseword right at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zJlsc8GU50&feature=related

It's for bad breath distance only, given an arms length, get the gun up in your cone of vision for at least rough alignment, as he does with target #2.

 

[KY Gentleman]

Thanks for the YouTube clip. I forgot about that scene. I don't normally care for Tom Cruise but I liked that character.