Hat question for Art and Andykev

[Fedora]

Ok guys, I want to first admit that I may very well, in the past, confused the finish on a particular hat with "quality". Or perhaps, I just prefer a particular finish on a felt hat. I have always been attracted to felt hats that had a very smooth finish. If I hold the hat up to the sunlight, I prefer to see no, or very little fuzz framing the outline of the hat, if you get my drift. I have some hats that are so slick, you see no fuzz at all. The UK vintage 3x Stetson sets the standards for this, in my collection. I am aware of some of the various finishes on vintage hats, suede, beaver nap, and smooth come to mind. Of course there are others but they escape me at the moment as it is early and the brain has not responded to the caffeine in the Starbucks I am consuming. Now, most of the hats that I have owned that came with a somewhat fuzzy finish, scored lower on the needle test for density. That is, up until I received an Imperial Stetson from fedoralover. This hat does not have a real smooth finish, but is very dense, scoring right up there with my 3x, my UK Imperial, and my belly beaver hat. So, it became apparent that the finish does not always indicate the density of the felt. A no brainer I guess, but also something I was not aware of. Or just really never thought about. So, here is the question. What does one do to get rid of the fuzz? Yeah, I know about pouncing and have pounced many hats. But, even with hours of hand pouncing, you never get rid of all of the fuzz. How did the hatmakers do it? It looks as if they almost used something like a planer, cutting the fuzz off evenly, to create the smooth look that is on my 3x. On the Imperial I acquired from fedorlover, I have pounced that hat for hours, using the differing grades of paper, even trying 1000 grit, to no avail. It still has the fuzz. What gives? I am hoping you guys, Art in particular, has the answer. Was there some sort of machine that was used to create a super duper smooth finish? I even thought that perhaps a flame was used to singe the fuzz, but don't have the nerve to do that on a fine vintage hat. Any ideas? thanks. Fedora

 

[Art Fawcett]

WOW..now I understand what you have been saying for a while Fedora. Several months ago Andy posted pics of one of my new machine aquisitions, namely a crown iron. I'm not as good at searching as Andy so maybe when he reads this post he'll attach a link for you. At any rate. this is the answer for you. As you found out, pouncing ( sanding) isn't the only answer but in combination with ironing the felt the hatter can get a tight flat finish. You can sand forever, but until you use heat to tighten it up it will be to no avail. Another part of the process usually involves putting some of the natural oils back into the felt to make it lie better. The felting process itself strips the oils from the fur so it doesn't hurt to put some back, making a sheen to the felt.
Hope this helps

Art

 

[fedoralover]

I think that determining the felt quality of a vintage hat is really hard to do. The needle test is a good test if all things are known to be equal, but most of the time they're not. Meaning that I can take a cheap felt hat and by putting on a lot of stiffener and ironing the thing really hard made it so that it would take a hammer to drive a nail in it. Go to a western supply shop and feel the felt on the hats they sell. They are hard as bricks and it would take a lot to push a needle through. But the felt is certainly not the same quality as a nice vintage one with no felt stiffner. And who knows all the processes and steps that a certain manufacturer used in making the felt. It could differ from location to location even if its the same brand. As a recent example, I've heard that Dave Morgan sells akubra's that have the Heritage quality felt and it is a lot nicer felt than what Akubra provide's on the Federation Deluxe. If anyone ever figures out the exact way to tell I'll be delighted. The quest continues.

fedoralover

 

[Fedora]

As you found out, pouncing ( sanding) isn't the only answer but in combination with ironing the felt the hatter can get a tight flat finish. You can sand forever, but until you use heat to tighten it up it will be to no avail. Another part of the process usually involves putting some of the natural oils back into the felt to make it lie better. The felting process itself strips the oils from the fur so it doesn't hurt to put some back, making a sheen to the felt.

The trouble is, I can't replicate the finish. I knew about the ironing technique, along with the pouncing. Of course, I am aware that some felts are finer, denser, depending upon the purity and mix of the fur mixture that went into the hat. I am aware of the different tools used to produce the different finishes(some of the tools, but not all). So, I am not sure whether the pouncing and ironing would be what separates the various felt hats that I own. My perception may be faulty, but I swear, on a couple of my smooth finish hats, it looks as if the hat was planed,with a razor sharp cutting instrument. If you pounce it at all, (not that it needs it), you would get a hat with more fuzz. YOu may very well be correct Art, and since you would know of such things, I am gonna take your word as gospel......for now. I am just a "show me type of guy", so I apologize, up front. This stuff is intensely interesting to me. I am a fanatic about the facts.

The needle test is a good test if all things are known to be equal, but most of the time they're not.

Oh yes, I agree. You need to compare apples to apples on this. I would never even try the test on a stiff hat. You add a determining variable when you do that. Of my hats, the vintage, non stiff ones, even using that technique can be subjective because my nervous system is not equipped to distinguish minute differences in pressure needed to push the needle though. On some felt. like my 3x and Imperial, the difference is distinguishable between those two and other vintage hats that I own. To be clear, I normally would not even do the needle test, but just noticed it first when I was sewing the ribbon back on a reblocked hat. Since then, I have been known to do the test on a new acquisition, not really as a comparison, but more just to see how relatively dense this particular felt is. Like I said, I am interested in this stuff. Wish I were closer to Art. He would get tired of me bugging him when he was working on hats at his shop. LOL Oh Art, please check you pm box, I sent you an off board query. Fedora

 

[Andykev]

Wow

That is a very good question, and maybe out of my league. I have seen the photos of a felt hat being singed to knock off the "fuzz", but I believe ironing is the key.

Also , there are oils used to help the felt lay down..and it believe it is some natural oil, and Art, what is it?

OOPS I have to run, ART's TV SHOW IS ON!