Historical clothing that Hollywood has trouble with

[Chasseur]

I was drafting a fun tongue and check essay for the "Gibson Patriot" thread that was closed down. I thought since I put some work in to it I didn't want it to go to waste, so I've recrafted it here.

Of all the historical periods, the 18th Century has to be one of the hardest for Hollywood "to get right". There are too many aspects of male 18th Century costumes: knee breeches and stockings with dainty buckled shoes, wigs, men with makeup, etc. as are seen as too "dandy/feminine" for the modern American audiance. So there are constant efforts "man up" actors wardrobes. So leading men:

(1) Are normally in leather riding boots not buckled shoes (contrary to what Fletch says hollywood seems to think high boots are for men ) even when they no where near a horse (like on a ship or making rocking chairs...). I think Gibson's exterior use of leather garters and boots in "The Patriot" was again a way of making him look more "rustic and manly."

Crowe here is perfect for Hollywood to be an acceptable leading male for the 18th/early 19th Century his own hair tied back, open shirt, high boots and wearing a manly uniform.

Contrast that with another British officer whose has the more classic villain look:

Finding some way of putting them in pants instead of knee breeches is always favored (see "Revolution" with Al Pacino)


(2) Are NOT, NOT, NOT going to be in wigs, they will be the exception for the age with their own hair clubed in back( we are not going to even talk about putting men in makeup....). And no tricorn hats if at all possible. However, long flowing hair is seen as acceptably manly...

Efeminine villains (preferably British for Hollywood) will however have wigs.

Actually "The Patriot" actually broke some ground here by having the British bad guy not wear a wig.

 

[Chasseur]

(3) If at all possible leading men's clothes will not be brightful colored, or made from velvet or silk or have lots of lace on them. They will be plain, dark colored stout woolens. No lace at the cuffs as well! So it helps to always make the hero: a plain dressed colonial, puritan a la John Adams, or a brave Scottish Highlander, or even for Tyron Power in "Marie Antoinette" to be solid Swedish (really they use him as stand in for an American plain dressed moral ideal in contrast to the decadent French court).

One need only glance at these two photos to know who is heroic male and who is the villian from this one:

Even better is to have them in manly Scottish or Native American dress (this cross references with the open shirt requirment below) and carefully posed with weapons in front of pure, rustic scenery to contrast their manly, spartan virture against the efiminine refinement of the villans.

(4) Also, having lots of scenes of them without any "frilly sort of jabot or stock or cravat" and having that "sexy open shirt" off the cover of a bad romance novel is also highly sought after:

Villans however will have lots of lace (see above picture of Tim Roth again)

By the way I don't actually see 18th Century clothing this way, I'm actually a fan of it (I used to wear it every day for about 4 or 5 years). There are also exceptions, Kubrick's "Barry Lyndon" was very nicely done.

So how about you guys? What tropes and problems do you tend to see in certain eras when they are filmed?

 

[Stearmen]

Flaming Red Hair

The powdered wig was on its way out by the time of the Revolution. Young Liberal minded men like Thomas Jefferson saw it as the trappings of the Conservative King George III. The king saw them as nothing more then Liberal Rabble Rousers! Remember this was the Age Of enlightenment, which gave us, We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Franklin wanted God and fought hard with Jefferson who wanted no reference, but finally compromised with the more benign Creator. So Jefferson wore his Flaming Red Hair in a pigtail, wonder if he would be elected today with his hair, editing the Bible down to seven pages and he was a Deist! Washington did wear a powdered wig. It is speculated, that the wig and makeup was to cover disease, which by the time of the younger Revolutionaries had been largely eradicated! Washington had contracted smallpox when he was young and had a pock marked face, and no he did not wear wooden teeth, they were made from human teeth and springs, a form of torture! So much of the history of our Revaluation was written by the Victorians who flat out made things up. Ever hear of Paul Revere's Midnight Ride?

 

[Yeps]

I work (well, worked) at a living history museum in Virginia, with a perpetual year of 1771. I have to say, we had no lace, or fancy fabrics. I wore almost exclusively linen, since I was working in the summer. We also did not have tricorn hats, as their broad brimmed cousins were much more practical. However, there were a couple somewhat surprising thing. Even for poor farmers, to be without your waistcoat and neckerchief was considered to be in a state of undress, as was to have your head uncovered. We also did not have many knee-breeches, but they were considered just as acceptable as trousers. Also, absolutely no buckle shoes. Actually, most of us almost never wore shoes, but the ones we did wear had laces. Buckles are too expensive. So, a lot of what you are talking about really applied to the upper class. There were a lot of working folk around, and they didn't dress or live like you see at Mt. Vernon.

Edit: We did use bright colors a lot though, even if most of them had faded quite a bit. Lots of blue and green.

 

[Chasseur]

Yeps,

No worries, I know exactly what you mean. I used to dress in middle class
18th century clothes every day, so I'm pretty famillar with regular every day clothes. I didn't wear a tricorn or buckeled shoes either.

Tongue was firmly in check when I wrote most of the above passages.

 

[Hepville]

So how about you guys? What tropes and problems do you tend to see in certain eras when they are filmed?
__________________

Boots and sailors on ships/ barefoot sailors on ships... ever tried to climb up the rigging barefoot or walk through a wooden deck without getting splinters?
Me did... and turned out as not really practical

 

[JPH]

I'd have to say that I agree with what Yeps said. Your post was based on assuming the image of colonial times that was falsely portrayed and perpetuated by Hollywood, though I do see how you may have just been poking the drunkard in the pillory with a pointy stick for a chuckle.

The major problem I see with the costuming in the above films runs more along the line of the fit and overall silhouette. It's tough costuming period productions or even convincing reenactors/living historians/museum docents to wear the clothes the way they did in the period. Mainly because actors and reenactors/etc. like to be comfortable, and unfortunately to the period portrayed, the period clothes don't fit like and oversized t-shirt and ratty jeans.

Joseph
Ever try to explain to an adamant female wannabe reenactor who refuses to wear a period corset (because she believes it's unnecessary) that when period foundation garments are properly fitted, constructed and worn they work as an intergrated system of supporting the weight of all those pettcoats and skirts, so that their back won't be killing them at the end of the day? Been there, slammed my head against that wall. :eusa_doh:

 

[Chasseur]

As I said, it was just a fun post I was writing to a thread that was closed for other reasons. I just spent too long writing it to not post it somewhere else.

Most of what I wrote above was for fun, not to be taken too seriously. Just some (what I thought to be fun) observations on movies over the years.

I hear you about the corset thing. I've had that experience myself, no matter what you say some people will never believe you about 18th century stays giving them back support.

 

[Guttersnipe]

It seems that Hollywood also has a hard time grasping the idea that fashions evolved and changed considerably during the 18th century. The shape of hats, the cut of coats & waistcoats, and the styling of wigs are quite distinctive almost to the decade. The well kitted gent of 1780 bares a completely different silhouette than that of his 1740's counterpart.

In my opinion the movie that best captures the spirit of the era, both in terms of fashions and mannerisms, as well as matching up correct decade specific costuming, is Rob Roy. Tim Roth's portrayal Archibald Cunningham has to be one of the best movie villains EVER too!

Oh and a small point. While Master and Commander the novel takes place in 1798, the film version actually depicts the events of Far Side of the World, another book in Patrick O'Brian's series and is set in 1811 or 1812. Despite seeming slightly counter intuitive, from about 1805 on, it was the style for Royal Navy officers to wear riding or "Hessian" boots.

 

[Lone_Ranger]

Even better is to have them in manly Scottish or Native American dress (this cross references with the open shirt requirement below) and carefully posed with weapons in front of pure, rustic scenery to contrast their manly, spartan virtue against the effeminate refinement of the villains.

After an Athenian accused Spartans of being ignorant, the Spartan Plistoanax agreed: "What you say is true. We have learned none of your evil ways."


Regarding The Patriot, IIRC, Col. William Tavington's (Jason Isaacs) unit, was known as the Green Dragoons, because they actually wore green jackets. I believe the director made a choice to put them in red (with green facings), so that the viewers wouldn't have a problem identifying them as British.


They should have looked more like this.

http://www.warbranchpress.com/images/fox_tarleton_400x210.jpg

 

[Gingerella72]

I think Hollywood makes more of an effort today to be period correct than they used to be. Watch almost any period film from the 40's, 50's and 60's and you'll see 40's, 50's, and 60's hairstyles and makeup on the women, and their dresses will have those era's hallmarks (neckline, etc) even if they do fall all the way to the floor.

Actually, probably the only movie (correct me if I'm wrong) in the Golden Era to have gone to some length to get the hair and clothing right was Gone With The Wind. I used to think they just did the same thing as always, stuck the actresses in hoop skirts but kept their same modern hairstyles, until I was looking through some old Victorian photos online and some saw very similar hairstyles - and clothes - to what Vivian Leigh was wearing. The hoop skirt width may have been a bit exaggerated, but the styling and details was pretty spot on.

 

[Paisley]

Some period movies and TV shows from the 50s and 60s were just dreadful for costumes. I'm thinking of Dr. Zhivago and The Untouchables: big bouffants and false eyelashes in revolutionary Russia and the Roaring 20s.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

Or even later on. Look at the hairstyles in Happy Days!

 

[The Good]

Or even later on. Look at the hairstyles in Happy Days!

Right, I can relate to this one. I recently watched a bit of it, and noticed a character sporting a 1970s hair style in a show supposed to be set from around 1955 to 1965. As cool as The Fonz is, was his hairstyle all that accurate to the 1950s greaser look? In my opinion it appears to be, but maybe someone else has noticed something about this.

 

[Bustercat]

In westerns, thou shalt not show pants worn too high, stances too delicate, or hats too reminiscent of grandma's sun topper, despite how authentic.

If you dare towards authenticity, careful application of enough dirt and profanity to cover a whitechapel chimney sweep does wonders to restore masculinity.

 

[Chasseur]

lol

The dirt and profanity is classic Bustercat!

 

[LordBest]

I think they do medieval far worse than 18th century, to be honest. At least with the 18th century clothing they get most of the details right, whereas when it comes to medieval film the costumes are pure fantasy that would disgrace a Renaissance Faire or even the SCA. Crusader period films with clothing that bears only a vague resemblence to fourteenth century court dress is probably the most common complaint. Anachronistic plate harnesses and helmet types the next.

 

[Paisley]

In westerns, thou shalt not show pants worn too high, stances too delicate, or hats too reminiscent of grandma's sun topper, despite how authentic.

Some re-enactors at a ranch here in Colorado pointed out that if you wear your gun belt around your hips, your guns fall out when you mount a horse.

 

[Stearmen]

Snide Actors

My favorite line was from the making of The Court Martial of Billy Mitchell. Apparently the family of General Mitchell approached Gary Cooper to tell them how Billy was in real life. Cooper responded, "the audience is not paying to see Billy Mitchell, they are paying to see Gary Cooper"! I think that sums up all of Hollywood! Don't even get me started on John Wayne's WWII movies!

 

[1961MJS]

My favorite line was from the making of The Court Martial of Billy Mitchell. Apparently the family of General Mitchell approached Gary Cooper to tell them how Billy was in real life. Cooper responded, "the audience is not paying to see Billy Mitchell, they are paying to see Gary Cooper"! I think that sums up all of Hollywood! Don't even get me started on John Wayne's WWII movies!

Hi, unfortunately Gary was probably right. John Wayne's WWII movies were pretty much spot on compared to the Green Berets. In the Jungle firing round after round, with two or three mags, no pack, and one (if any) canteen.

Later