In Support of Brick and Mortar Hat Shops

[skyvue]

The concept of using the brick & motor shop's stock and the information gleaned from the salespeople and then buying online for the price is in fact a type of theft of services.

You've never in your life stopped in a store, asked a few innocent questions, then, later, seeing a lower price on the item in question, made your purchase elsewhere?

If not, you are a rare consumer indeed, and I tip my hat to you.

But I would guess that probably 99% of the world's consumers have done so at one time or another (and most have done it repeatedly).

 

[John in Covina]

You've never in your life stopped in a store, asked a few innocent questions, then, later, seeing a lower price on the item in question, made your purchase elsewhere? If not, you are a rare consumer indeed, and I tip my hat to you. But I would guess that probably 99% of the world's consumers have done so at one time or another (and most have done it repeatedly).

That still doesn't make it right.

Nearly everyone at some point lies, cheats or steals something, popularity of actions does not make those actions right.

If you could get everyone to vote to make murder legal would that truly legitamize murder?

 

[RP McMurphy]

Sadly, as others have pointed out, hat shops in general have gone well... the way of the hat. Society at large no longer views fine hats as a practical or sartorial necessity.

Thus, finding a decent hat for a decent price has become nearly impossible, and while I would love to support my local hatshop, we don't seem to have one. Though I have made a few forrays into New York City, the only hat shops I found there were far out of my price range. Wonderful service and products, just too much for a starving college kid to afford!

So I suppose I'll have to bide my time with vintage grabs on ebay, while I wait for the eventual return of the fine hat to the public eye... and to an agreeable price-range. And while I'm dreaming, I'd like a date with Audrey Hepburn please...


Cheers

RP

 

[skyvue]

Nearly everyone at some point lies, cheats or steals something, popularity of actions does not make those actions right.

You urged someone in another thread to ease out of attack mode; I'd urge you to do the same.

Shopping around is every consumer's right and privilege, as most store owners and vendors would readily agree.

I certainly support smaller shops when I can -- I bought a book this weekend at a small bookshop that I could easily have gotten much more cheaply online, but I was happy to spend the few extra bucks to support what I found to be a welcoming and well-run establishment.

But do I ever bargain-hunt and buy elsewhere, even after asking some initial questions at a bricks & mortar store? Yes.

I'll often warn salesclerks up front that I'm definitely not going to make my purchase that day, that I'm only doing my initial research, thereby freeing them up to slip away to help someone else, if they care to.

Guess what -- they never do.

Is it still "theft" if I tell them up front that I'm not yet ready to buy?

When I do encounter a helpful floor clerk, I make it a point to ask for his or her name and I do my darnedest, if I return to that store, to seek out that salesperson, so that he or she can get the credit for (and, if applicable, the commission for). Also, I never ever shop at certain big-box stores that, in my view, do nothing but harm to the communities of which they are a part and drive more mom-and-pops out of business than internet shopping has done.

So we're not on entirely different pages, you and I. Not at all.

But it's a rare individual who hasn't "sinned" in his or her life as a consumer, so I figure it's a good idea to hold off on throwing any stones.

 

[Mahagonny Bill]

True Story
I have been trolling the threads, trying to decide if I should get a fold-able fedora for an upcoming trip, or subject my Fed IV to the indignities of an airline luggage bin. I had pretty much decided on a Christy's foldaway, even though the price is a bit more that I want to pay at this time.

Before I ordered however, I decided to take a look at my local hat shop to compare models before I ordered on-line. After telling them what I needed, they showed me a hat that was comparable in style to the Christy's, but at half the price. Needless to say, I'll be picking it up from them this week and will be posting pics when I do.

I say support your local hat shop. If you don't no one will.

 

[John in Covina]

You've never in your life stopped in a store, asked a few innocent questions, then, later, seeing a lower price on the item in question, made your purchase elsewhere?

If not, you are a rare consumer indeed, and I tip my hat to you.

But I would guess that probably 99% of the world's consumers have done so at one time or another (and most have done it repeatedly).

**********
What do you mean by innocent questions?

Elsewhere points more to a selection of similar level stores not brick & motor versus online.

There is a difference between being a careful consumer and doing what I am describing above. When I was deciding on a big screen tv, I read magazines and online reviews. I visited Best Buy and Circuit City and several department stores to see what their price was for the 2 models i was considering. I did not engage their salespeople with questions.

I did buy online but I had selected the make and model before looking at those tv's and I did not use their services to decide which one I was going to buy. Now I will add that if the brick and motar store had been closer in price then I would have spent more to have the TV the same day and not wait a week or so. There is a difference.

I can't find Dennis Prager's info on this but another person wrote out some of the Concepts about this:

"In Judaism, you are not allowed to ask in a store what something costs unless there is some chance in your mind you will buy that item. This is uniquely Jewish, because it considers the wasting of a salesperson’s time and falsely raising their hopes of making a sale is a theft of time. And it is considered a sin. Now Mr. Prager is the first to admit that many people go into a camera store, one of his favorite places, to ask details about which camera is best, then they walk out to buy it cheaper on the internet. And he noted many women where he lives in Los Angeles will “buy” a dress for a party on Saturday night, only to return it on Monday for a refund."

The dress return should be seen as a clearly a wrong thing to do.

Funny thing is for me if an item is not clearly marked as to price I won't ask about it simply because I feel that a store should have the asking price posted so you need not engage their saleperson as a waste of my time, mostly.

If you are dining out most of us know that you should not bring wine that's on the restaurants wine list, but some people don't understand why.

Philisophically (SP) I'd say try to do no harm may be best. If you see no harm, then ask if you'd want that to be done to you, especially if you are on commission.

We don't live in a perfect world but we can try to live in one that is civilized and has ethics.

 

[Tango Yankee]

This is a topic I've seen pop up from time to time since the '80s, though back then it was ordering from a catalog rather than online. Mostly I've heard it in conjunction with two other interests, motorcycling and scuba diving.

I do agree with the concept in principle, and try to support my local brick and mortar shop when there is a local shop and when I can. It is, though, a bit galling to look at an item in a shop and find it significantly less online. A few dollars difference (and remembering to factor in the shipping costs) and I go local. A hundred dollars difference? No, I'm not that rich. Where's the cutoff point? I dunno--depends on how I was treated, I suppose.

A case in point. Last weekend I stopped at a local motorcycle repair shop because I had heard that they mounted tires, and that they could get a good price on tires. I got their price on the tires I need for my motorcycle, and their price for mounting tires. They have two prices for mounting and balancing--one for tires bought through them, add $10 per wheel for tires you bring in. Fair enough, says I. I go home and check my on-line source. The combined cost of the two tires is $85 less than their cost, or about what it'll cost me to have them mount and balance them. In this case (depending on their mark-up) they may not be making money off a tire sale, but they're making some of it up (or more, I dunno) with the surcharge. Works for me.

But consider this: suppose you lived somewhere there were two hat shops. You go to one, chat with the sales staff, try on hats, think there might be one you like but it's a bit steep cost-wise. You thank them for their time, and leave. There is nothing obligating you to buy that hat from them. You then go to the other hat shop and chat with the sales staff and try on hats. You find they have the same model hat that you liked, but it's less expensive. You decide you can afford it, and you buy it from them. Are you guilty of theft from the first hat because you didn't buy it from them? No. It's called "shopping around" and is a generally accepted practice. Is it theft of services if in the end I decide not to make a purchase at all? No. So why is it theft of services if I decide to purchase it online or out of a catalog instead?

To play devil's advocate further, one could just as easily call up an Internet-based company and spend some time chatting with their salesperson, asking questions about their various products, and then turn around and purchase locally. Probably wouldn't happen as it does seem that items purchased through Internet-based companies do tend to be less expensive, but depending on what the item is the cost of shipping could push the deal back the other way. Getting back to my tire purchase, the total cost of the tires would probably be back up to being near that of the local shop if they didn't offer free shipping.

Internet businesses have overhead costs of their own. Many have their own warehouses that have to be paid for, manned and operated. They have to pay for their web presence and all that entails--not cheap if you do it right. They have to pay for people to man the phones and the e-mail boxes, as well as the fax and the snail-mail. Just because you can't see these things it doesn't mean they're not there. No, I suppose that it's not quite comparing apples to apples when you talk local hat shop vs. a large online hat business but the brutal truth is that they compete with each other.

I'm sure I have a point in all that rambling somewhere. The point is probably something along the lines of that it's good to support your local shop when you can, but sometimes it's not economically feasible to do so for every purchase.

Regards,
Tom

 

[Feraud]

**********
What do you mean by innocent questions?

Elsewhere points more to a selection of similar level stores not brick & motor versus online.

There is a difference between being a careful consumer and doing what I am describing above. When I was deciding on a big screen tv, I read magazines and online reviews. I visited Best Buy and Circuit City and several department stores to see what their price was for the 2 models i was considering. I did not engage their salespeople with questions.

I did buy online but I had selected the make and model before looking at those tv's and I did not use their services to decide which one I was going to buy. Now I will add that if the brick and motar store had been closer in price then I would have spent more to have the TV the same day and not wait a week or so. There is a difference.

I can't find Dennis Prager's info on this but another person wrote out some of the Concepts about this:

"In Judaism, you are not allowed to ask in a store what something costs unless there is some chance in your mind you will buy that item. This is uniquely Jewish, because it considers the wasting of a salesperson’s time and falsely raising their hopes of making a sale is a theft of time. And it is considered a sin. Now Mr. Prager is the first to admit that many people go into a camera store, one of his favorite places, to ask details about which camera is best, then they walk out to buy it cheaper on the internet. And he noted many women where he lives in Los Angeles will “buy” a dress for a party on Saturday night, only to return it on Monday for a refund."

The dress return should be seen as a clearly a wrong thing to do.

Funny thing is for me if an item is not clearly marked as to price I won't ask about it simply because I feel that a store should have the asking price posted so you need not engage their saleperson as a waste of my time, mostly.

If you are dining out most of us know that you should not bring wine that's on the restaurants wine list, but some people don't understand why.

Philisophically (SP) I'd say try to do no harm may be best. If you see no harm, then ask if you'd want that to be done to you, especially if you are on commission.

We don't live in a perfect world but we can try to live in one that is civilized and has ethics.

Ugh. Dude, don't be do damn judgemental. An innocent question is an innocent question. Don't overthink everything or compare shoppers to criminals and murderers. Not everything you disagree with is nefarious or immoral.

 

[Woodfluter]

The concept of using the brick & motor shop's stock and the information gleaned from the salespeople and then buying online for the price is in fact a type of theft of services. By using those things that make for a higher cost of operation, paying for a location, operating expenses, and sales persons you use those expenses for yourself fully for your benefit but the effort and expense is all incurred by the store.

OK, let us reason together.

In preface, I always try to patronize local merchants whenever I can get the item I need from the. I want them to be around and they're part of my community. Talking local merchants, not chains.

My dad lived through the Great Depression. In consequence, he and I would drive around to 5 or 10 brick and mortar places to compare prices, and spend $15 of gas to save $10. Not blaming him here, he eventually looked at this more rationally.

Now when we got the benefit of looking at and examining an item carefully, but then bought from a different store because the price was lower, were we stealing? Should we have purchased at the first store regardless?

John, I somehow think the issue here is not exactly what you've framed. If I were in business with a real store, I'd understand what I was up against and realize I had to figure out a way to add value compared to other competing options - both brick and mortar and online. I'd feel like I was just whining if I complained about the competition - it's part of the current environment.

That said, I absolutely hate to see real stores disappearing over the horizon. I totally support the idea of keeping your local merchants in business. I think the real issues are keeping stores around and economic ethics. Buyers: pay what something is worth even if it isn't the absolute lowest price, and Sellers: make the experience worth the fare. Sometimes the failing lies with sellers and their staff, alas.

= Bill

 

[Lefty]

after the huge derailment...

I've got a rain-proof borso, that I bought before I knew better, which I bought from Mike the Hatter (also before I knew better), that is still my go-to hat for bad weather.

The milan I bought at Optimo is my favorite hat.

slightly OT: About half of my vintage hats have come from brick-and-mortar stores -the antique shops that are disappearing from Ohio.

 

[Tango Yankee]

**********
There is a difference between being a careful consumer and doing what I am describing above. When I was deciding on a big screen tv, I read magazines and online reviews. I visited Best Buy and Circuit City and several department stores to see what their price was for the 2 models i was considering. I did not engage their salespeople with questions.

I did buy online but I had selected the make and model before looking at those tv's and I did not use their services to decide which one I was going to buy.

Oh? You didn't compare the picture quality of the two models you were considering? Or if you'd already made up your mind but when you went in you noticed the picture quality wasn't what you wanted, you wouldn't have changed your mind as to making the purchase? Most places like those have every model up and running--kinda hard to not see and compare.

Once you walk into a brick and mortar store you're using their services, even if it's just to enjoy the A/C on a hot day. It's up to their sales personnel to close the deal.

Regards,
Tom

 

[John in Covina]

You urged someone in another thread to ease out of attack mode; I'd urge you to do the same.

I am not attacking anyone here, we are trying to discuss life philosophies and how people see things and what the viewpoint is coming from.

My statement stands, it is a fact of life, yearly you can hear radio reports and even tv reports as to polls of high school students on cheating and stealing that supports what I said. Not everyone but most everyone has accidentally gone home with a pen from work, taken a personal call when they should have been working or took advantage at some point whether conscoiusly or not the result is the same. It happens.

I'd like you to consider the idea that we may disagree and the point odf the discussion is to give instances, results, observations and even gut feelings.

We all human and that means we are imperfect.

 

[John in Covina]

Oh? You didn't compare the picture quality of the two models you were considering? Or if you'd already made up your mind but when you went in you noticed the picture quality wasn't what you wanted, you wouldn't have changed your mind as to making the purchase? Most places like those have every model up and running--kinda hard to not see and compare.

Once you walk into a brick and mortar store you're using their services, even if it's just to enjoy the A/C on a hot day. It's up to their sales personnel to close the deal.

Regards,
Tom

*******
If I may point out an important fact about tv's on display at the store, they are not the best place to judge what a screen's capabilities are because they are usually set way too high in brightness and color settings. (Some tv's acually come with a Display setting in the set up.) If you use a DVD set up[ disc you'll find that the balance is usually pretty far from what the display unit is set at. Also the lighting at the store is what makes for the settings to be higher then what you should do at home.

 

[Feraud]

I'd like you to consider the idea that we may disagree and the point odf the discussion is to give instances, results, observations and even gut feelings.

You do not have the right to accuse anyone's actions of being akin to cheating then tell HIM to give instances, results, etc.
They guy does not owe you a spreadsheet of data for walking into to a hatshop to chat with the salesmen and not buying.

Stop badgering members. It looks bad on you.

 

[John in Covina]

What badgering?

 

[Woodfluter]

Back on the subject of hats, and places to get them...

Atlanta is a pretty big city. Not like Chicago or New York, but at one time there were menswear shops and department stores carried fine hats. No longer. When visiting hat shops in larger cities while travelling, e.g. DC or Houston, I couldn't find much.

If I had a chance I'd support B&M but it just isn't much of an option for me.

I suspect there's a "tipping point" issue here. Once the buyers for a particular item fall below a certain level, the store just can't afford to stock the same variety. Once the variety falls below a certain point, choosy buyers stop frequenting those stores. Then there's no point in carrying that item at all. This applies far less to an online or catalog supplier who can reach a far wider audience and can afford to stock niche items.

I don't like it but that's how it is. Good local bookstores, and now even some chains, are dying because of Amazon. But Amazon offers a lot.

Also, best of luck Paulette! If I'm ever in San Fran I'll definitely check out your store.

= Bill

 

[Feraud]

You've badgered from post #20 on. You accuse Skyvue and everyone else who has ever walked into a shop to chat with the salespeople and not buy of being cheaters.
You are defending your accusing people of being thieves by requesting THEY prove they are not. That is badgering.

 

[Tango Yankee]

The bottom line is that although some may bemoan the practice, it is still the time-honored practice of "shopping around." Sure, I could do all of my shopping online, but all the online guys have to work with is how well their websites allow you to interact with them and price.

When I walk into a brick and mortar store it gives the sales staff an interactive opportunity to win me over. It doesn't have to be just on price. If we all said OK, we won't walk into a local shop because to do so without buying anything is stealing the local shops lose the opportunity they might have had to sell us something.

And I would point out that even if I go in and look, and ask questions, they are getting my time and attention and opportunity to sell to me in return. That is worth something! My time and attention is worth something! Now that you've pushed the issue, I'd say that's a fair trade. Ask any sales person whether or not they'd rather have a warm body walk in the door and give them that chance, or have that same person stay home and click a mouse.

I think they'd go for the chance.

Regards,
Tom

 

[John in Covina]

You do not have the right to accuse anyone's actions of being akin to cheating then tell HIM to give instances, results, etc.
They guy does not owe you a spreadsheet of date for walking into to a hatshop to chat with the salesmen and not buying. Stop badgering members. It looks bad on you.

**********
All I am trying to do is bring a point of view to this discussion. Do as you please. I am not forcing anyone to do anything. I am trying to say that in dealing with others there is a difference in perceptions here.

 

[Feraud]

I am trying to say that in dealing with others there is a difference in perceptions here.

You are right, there is a difference in perceptions.
We (and this includes you) need to respect the different member perceptions.
You need not compare something you disagree with to actions like cheating, stealing, and justifying murder. They are not the same. That is creating a mountain of discussion from a molehill of a comment.

If Skyvue says his questions to a saleperson are innocent then they are. You cannot call him to task on it.

We should be able to agree to disagree.