Manners/Etiquette

[Maguire]

Well i've seen plenty of arguments criticizing dating, and had long debates on the topic of prostitution and i always get the whole "whats the difference, you're paying for sex in both cases" retort. I used to argue against this but i believe the "dating game" has changed to the point where it essentially has boiled down to this, its totally detatched from any emotional value, its purely physical and animalistic and there is no real consideration anymore. Now naturally, that isn't how it is everywhere but its essentially all i've encountered (and that's NYC so i'm not expecting it to be like Middle america.. i sure it isn't) but even people arguing that i'm a pessimist generally conceed with me on that. That its the same as prostitution i'm not sure, but when it comes down to just a physical act and a point where one night stands are not seen as a low thing, well, where does one really draw the line?

And to totally blame parents is unfair,- parents have limited control, as was said, due to technology, but also TV, schools,etc. I just can point to any stack of magazines at a magazine stand and you will see every single magazine has at least three articles about "the best sex you'll ever have" or "10 things he wants in bed" etc. Such open displays like this of lewd material would have been unheard of in any other era. And as for "bad language" and rudeness, if i picked up any of this it was at school. I learned virtually anything i "shouldn"t have known via TV or peers. My generation didn't get the internet until we were already almost teens or teens (it didn't really become common place for folks our age to use AOL and all that until 2000..2001 or so), so i can't say the internet played a big part, but i can't imagine the impact it had on the people who started after me is incalculable.All said, my parents did their best to raise me right and I think they did an ok job, but not to be self congratulatory, i was a big part in that. The fact was, if i had wanted to behave differently, picking up bad habits and poor behavior, i could have done so easily, and they wouldn't have had any idea about it. I chose not to because it doesn't appeal to me. Perhaps they instilled that into me, but i've seen how most people i used to know in grade school, and its in many cases not the fault of the parents at all.

And ben- touche on the marcus aurelius quote. I just finished meditations and was thoroughly impressed by it. But we can't all be Marcus Aurelius. I agree that technology and social changes is a reason, but I don't think it is something that will settle or ease its way into a new system that way.

alright that's definitely more than enough, excuse the length here.

 

[Dr Doran]

Maguire, I always appreciate the vividness of your posts whether or not I agree 100%. And Foofoo, I find you are right on the money in all matters, certainly in these. LizzieMaine, I applaud your patience and, having myself been a manager in a customer service setting, you know I know that the way you describe is indeed the only way.

I can say this: having spent four vacations in Poland, the kids are so much better behaved there than they are in America, it is like night and day. I have NEVER seen such well-behaved children anywhere. My wife is Polish, and we are raising our daughter in a mostly Polish style (she just spent 3 weeks there and now speaks Polish better than English) and as my wife notes: you start by making it very clear what is acceptable and what isn't. Result: good behavior in restaurants and more generally around other people.

I sat with my daughter at a restaurant and had two beers and she sat on an adult chair and ate an occasional Cheerio and behaved herself.

I think the key is constant vigilance, a decent amount of reinforcement for social behavior and chiding for antisocial behavior. I have seen this in one place other than Poland: amongst some extremely Christian cousins I have who homeschooled their children. These are the best-behaved and most affectionate and polite children I have ever seen.

As for misbehavior by persons who are already adults: yes, there is a (tiny) countermovement among adults between the ages of about twenty and fifty against the general societal rudeness, an acceptance of older, politer values.

It's called the Fedora Lounge.

And I don't see it anywhere else.

 

[Rufus]

Doran, I completely agree with your wife.

Boundaries are the most important thing to give your child (that, and unconditional love of course! ).

I have a ten year old son, and it's made clear what is accepted.... and expected. I'm careful to compliment on good behaviour, and to try and gentley coach away from any bad ones, although this is pretty much unnecessary as he knows what is expected, and this I truly believe makes us both happy.

I've gone to great lengths to explain that offering to help,kindness,manners and chivalry is not done for reward, it is our duty, and our commitment to others.

It pains me so many people I know want to be 'pals' with their kids, and buy good behaviour. 'If you stop screaming I'll buy you crisps' being the most common thing I hear most parents in the street saying.

Kids want a parent, not a 'friend', they have friends already! Hopefully by doing your best to be a good parent, you'll have a well adjusted child, who'll make good friends, and be productive and a proud addition to the community.

Phew..rant over.

Back to work for me...

Enjoy your Sunday everyone!
Rufus

 

[Widebrim]

One thing that I have noticed, especially since my move, is that when Im on the bus, I rarely see people offer their seat to an elderly person. That astounds me.


Lady Day, I so much agree. I don't take the RTD (excuse me, Metro) often, but have noticed what you've touched upon. In addition, and I know this may be viewed as chauvinist, I still offer my seat up to any female who doesn't have one. My parents grew up in the 20s and 30s, so such etiquette was natural to them, and inculcated in me. And, yes, there should be a law in Los Angeles!

 

[Widebrim]

Views as a teacher

Much of what has been written here is right on the money. Although manners have deteriorated over the decades, it does seem that the present age is the hands down winner in the rudeness category.

As an elementary teacher in a part Los Angeles known for its liberalness, I witness quite a bit of child-indulging activities. This includes (and please try to see the connection) boys up to the age of 11 still sporting the Little Lord Fauntleroy look, curls and all. Seriously, the children tend to be polite in some ways, like when they get caught doing something they shouldn't, but often their manners reflect the child-centered rearing techniques of their parents. Every day I have to remind students not to interrupt me when I'm in conversation with somebody else. On an almost regular basis, I have to remind students from other classes not to refer to my students and me as "you guys.":rage: (I also daily remind children not to refer to girls as "guys," a real pet peave of mine.) When I first came to this school, I was shocked (ok, maybe surprised is a better word) at all the parents who wanted me to call them by their first name, and wanted to do the same to me. Not that it is insulting to be referred to my first name, but it just seems unprofessional, and something which I never experienced years ago in my dealings with Latino immigrant parents (culture being another aspect of this debate).

Having said all this, it is refreshing when I do encounter students and parents who do make it a point to show respect and courtesy. While some parents may think that my good manners (and vintage clothinglol ) indicate my being stuck up, others have commented on my courtesy and professionalism. And, yes, I do teach my students manners (even read the Little Golden Book of Manners to them), such as opening doors for others (especially females), saying "please" and "thank you," and not blurting out when someone is engaged in Show and Tell. And I often quote the Golden Rule of Jesus to them: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

 

[Rufus]

Widebrim,

Thank goodness for teachers like yourself. A child will always remember a good teacher. I tracked down my favourite teacher, and sent him a letter of thanks for his encouragement and kindness.

People often forget to thank others...but it's never too late!

Rufus