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Discussion in 'Outerwear' started by jeo, Mar 3, 2021.
Wow. That inside zipper shot.... Stitching ranges from sloppy to down right amateurish.
Photos are one thing, the chronology is another. Before such photos are posted in a public forum, the person concerned, in this case the manufacturer of this leather jacket, should be informed. But that is probably an absurdity of our time to first talk about social media... Nevertheless, many thanks to @jeo for pointing this out.
Only if I plan to claim a guarantee. If I don't want that, or if it comes to me years later that something doesn't fit, then I see it more like a product test.
And to be honest, whose QC is putting such a jacket on the market shouldn't be surprising.
With jackets that are as understated as the frobisher, every flaw will show more. Not dissimilar to oriental calligraphy where painitng a simple sign is considered more difficult than a complicated sign. In the latter you can hide the less ideal strokes in the whole while in the former, you see inconsistencies immediately.
Another parallel is cooking, if you are having your filet with only salt you can assess its quality much better than if it covered in pepper sauce for example.
And this here is no exception, the pocket stitching is jarring because it is so visible, especially with contrast stitching. That is one of the main features of the jacket, it is as visible as if the main entrance of a luxury shop had uneven tiling.
If it was years ago, there is no longer any current discussion need to talk about it, it should have happened in the past. The thing with the guarantee claim is a question of conscience whether I contact the manufacturer directly or whether I have to babble about it on social media first...
I already understood you, sorry if it turned out differently.
I mean, if I am solution-oriented and interested in further "cooperation", then I am with you. Of course, I then contact the manufacturer and try to clarify everything and do not announce my displeasure on social media beforehand.
But if I'm upset and no longer interested in this manufacturer and don't expect anything from him, why should I forego a review?
And if years later I realize that I was not treated appropriately, then this report will just be available later. Everyone has to clarify for themselves which approach is best for them.
Personally, I first clarify things in private.
And when I feel like it, there is a factual report. Most of the time I don't feel like it.
This was discussed at length in another thread recently. The consensus was that when someone receives a jacket with which they are unsatisfied, it always makes sense to give the manufacturer a chance to address it first before going online. For myself, I think that's a good rule of thumb, though equally I can understand someone looking for a hive mind opinion if they're unsure whether something bothers them, or whether they want to raise it with the seller. Say, an inch of slightly misaligned stitching on an inside hem where it will never be seen, or something that folks might be in two minds about. That can especially be the case sometimes if it's a small, purely cosmetic flaw as opposed to a tear or damage, say. It's absolutely the case that expectations rise with priceband, of course.
Let's be honest, apart from jeo's jacket & maybe some others, most of the time we are talking about small defects and often compare apples with pears (as David Himel said: When a brand makes an off-the-shelf jacket they can use standard manufacture techniques that can't be used when making a bespoke jacket.) But maybe that's exactly what hard core (and soft in the head) forum members give it that extra something to this forum. I also count myself among them…
I think it's fair to say that most of us who gravitate to these parts pay this sort of thing a lot more attention than the average person out there - maybe even moreso than some non-forum minded people who also buy from the kind of companies we like round here... Wen you put a big investment in something - whether emotional (speccing a custom jacket, or even one more OTR the way we do round here can involve quite an emotional investment) or financial, or both - I suppose it's only natural. I know I often tend to overthink things. Of course, this can also be half the fun!
The bespoke vs OTR approaches, certainly two very different models with different challenges, I think it's fair to say. Leather brings another angle to it: go a bit wrong with a line of stitches in worsted wool, it's easy to unpick and try again, but leather is much less forgiving. For that reason alone I've be terrified of working with leather. Only time I ever did it was years ago, I had a wallet that had way more card pockets than I needed; I opened up the seam and removed a bunch of them, then sewed it up again using the same holes. While pathetically proud of myself for this, I could still see it was a bit porcine audio compared to what the pros had done. I kinda liked that it a way as it was part of its story with me, but I'd likely not have been impressed had I paid seventy or a hundred quid for it and it had come like that!
Anyone can see the issues with your jacket Jeo, even me, and I know nothing about jackets (relatively speaking) compared to the majority here.
So the thing for me is, why don’t you just contact David Himel and discuss these photos with him? It’s obliviously bothering you.
In a sense I’m slightly confused by your post because you also say you still love your Frobisher. It’s sort of a contradiction and yet I can understand it. Lastly, Email and text messaging often lacks clarity IMO. Why not send him the photos and then request a telephone call?
Just my thoughts.
It was primarily because I wanted an Imperial, badly, and I wasn’t going to get one from GW. I had to put my faith in him and it paid off. The other reason is because he just knocked it out of the park in terms of fit and I was confident he would replicate that with the Imperial.
That was my feeling as well and if it was me, I would have reached out to @Carlos840 privately.
That is absolutely correct. That is why I wanted to make it clear that I only sent him one picture.
Also, I’m not sure this is correct and I don’t know who is responsible for QC, but from my understanding at the time communicating with him, I believe he was traveling so he may not have been there when the jacket was sent out.
I don’t know about feeling cheated or scammed, but I was definitely pissed off at his response to showing him the chest pocket.
I didn’t ask him for a remake back then. I just sent him the picture. I only brought it up to him because out of nowhere he said he can make me an Imperial. I achieved what I wanted from bringing it up to him which was not to get another sloppily made jacket.
It actually isn’t bothering me. What did bother me was the fact that Himel came on here and proclaimed that he always stands behind his products and that anyone who has brought up issues with him had them resolved.
I felt I had to tell everyone that isn’t the case.
I did bring it up with him. You saw his response. A picture is worth a thousand words. No need for a phone call.
Ok fair enough, I guess I’m reading between the lines a bit here ... but you weren’t asking him to replace your jacket at the time correct? You pointed out some flaws/issues and he responded.
Then you ordered another jacket. If at the time you were unhappy with his response, why not address it then with ... yes ... a phone call.
I guess what I’m saying is that perhaps Himel might interpret what happened as ‘ he might be slightly disappointed but he’s not asking for a redo’. I gave him my explanation and he’s ordered another jacket. Is it possible that as far as Himel was concerned the issue was resolved?
Just a thought. Not excusing the workmanship at all Jeo, just trying to look at this from a different lens is all.
I’m not trying say you aren’t entitled to feel the way you do, but I do generally believe the good in people, and I think the lines of communication are a bit messed up here is all.
I’m not sure what you’re implying but I made the chronology very clear.
I only sent him the photo of the chest pocket because that was the flaw that was the most obvious and noticeable.
The first part of my post was to share my experience with how Himel handled my situation when I sent him the chest pocket flaw.
The second part of my post where I showed the rest of the flaws is more of a review.
Again, I did not want or ask for a remake. Again, I only brought it up with Himel to make sure my Imperial wouldn’t come out the same way.
Like I said in my previous post here. I wasn’t going to get an Imperial from GW. I had to put my faith in him that after I showed him the flaws in my first jacket, it wouldn’t happen a second time. It didn’t. I also met Dave in person before he started making me the jacket and he assured me it would t happen again.
I was willing to leave it at that after his disappointing response because again, I wasn’t looking for a remake.
As far as I was concerned the whole purpose of me showing him the flaw was achieved.
Isn't the fact that he's happy to have work of this level out there for all to see very telling?
It would seem to me from all I’ve gathered the last week or so; plus the last several years that: Dave is fairly arrogant and prone to plenty of hyperbole. Also has a few too many excuses when it comes to backing up the hyperbole of “the best, lasts a lifetime, the best stitching, etc..” The hyperbole being the issue. If you stand by it; then you must stand by it. But, and I should say BUT; and it’s a big BUT....the overwhelming majority of his jackets leave customers satisfied and often even raving. He does have really unique patterns, seems to be able to dial in the fit, and does use some of the best leather and prettiest hardware. We’ve seen a few pieces now that are failures. They are not good for any price point; let alone 2,000+. But I really don’t want to pile on or for new people doing a search and this coming up and them thinking Himel is all hype and is never worth the money. Most people really are so happy with his product. I personally cannot afford his jackets. Might never be able to. But if I could I would not be afraid to purchase one. His stuff is usually good. What would turn me off is how he’s handled the scrutiny. Carlos and Jeo may not have contacted him right away and Himel may be justified in his responses at least to the degree they had not realized the full extent of the flaws in a timely fashion. But again it’s a 2,000+ jacket and the guy says it’s the best and prettiest in North America; And he stands by each and everyone. When you say that kind of stuff I would expect better treatment.
edited for typos
I didn't mean the chronology by posting your pictures in this thread... I meant the chronology by contacting the manufacturer first before posting (all) pictures in a public forum.
You mentioned you are happy with your frobisher jacket. Then let's leave it at that, enjoy wearing it. We also know that it wasn't a masterpiece from Himel ... there is probably nothing more to say about it.
Yeah, that exactly. I had been on the fence about getting one of his jackets, and the white deer skin jacket I mentionned earlier was one of the major turn off for me. If you talk the talk, you should walk the walk.
I don’t think we can judge his body of work on one or two or three jackets. Mistakes/sub par quality does happen and according to what I’ve read on this forum, no maker is immune to it.
I agree with you and Jeo, the work displayed here (and with Carlo’s jacket) is sub par for the price. No one is saying it isn’t.
I guess we will never know, but I wonder if when Jeo met with Dave and said “I’m really not happy with my Frobisher and I’d like you to consider remaking it or at the very least, can you provide me a discount on my Imperial”? What would David’s response have been?
Since Jeo “loves his Frobisher” in my mind, that still counts for something.