Rosie the Riveter

[Foofoogal]

Excellent LizzieMaine.

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Like eating an elephant to respond to all of what is being spoken here.lol
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Before the first World War, women were decorations - To be seen and not heard.

Like this statement. What or where in the world was this learned. I don't know 2 women in the world the same. I sure don't see women like this throughout history.
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Proverbs chapter 31
King James Version

10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.
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seems like a pretty tough cookie to me buying a field at crack of dawn.
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Quote:
It just makes me mad a few loud mouth no clue women ruined it for everyone to have a "real choice"

You keep saying things like this, but I'm not sure what, if anything, you are basing those statements off. Who and where are these suffering women and children? What has been ruined?

hmm..lets see. I don't seriously think I can explain it if you cannot see it all around you.

 

[Lily Powers]

17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.

Oh oh. Did she haveth man arms?? (sorry, I just couldn't help myself lol )

 

[Foofoogal]

the point everyone seems to be missing responding to me is I have no dog in this fight. I am just trying to help maybe the younger one to ask more ?'s than just accept it all.
By this time though many of the men are just accepting it all too so hey..
Lets all work our hineys off and have little time. Like hamsters in a treadmill.
I do feel sorry for the women who really desire to have the choice and cannot now. Very sorry.
Like Lizzies mom feeling cheated these women should feel cheated. They have been and are:
By other women. Women like Gloria and Bella and others.
I guarantee there are millions like Amy Jeanne. Women who want to stay home with their babies and make a home.

 

[SayCici]

"Before the first World War, women were decorations - To be seen and not heard."
Like this statement. What or where in the world was this learned. I don't know 2 women in the world the same. I sure don't see women like this throughout history.

It is an ideal prevalent all throughout history! Ever heard of a Trophy wife? Most societies are patriarchal, and there is a reason why women like Joan of Arc are the exception to the rule.

Hyt ys an old Englysch sawe [saying]: ‘A mayde schuld be seen, but not herd.’
[c 1400 J. Mirk Festial (EETS) I. 230]

I am just trying to help maybe the younger one to ask more ?'s than just accept it all.
By this time though many of the men are just accepting it all too so hey..

Accept equality? Accept the right to vote? Accept the idea that my voice should be heard? Accept the idea that a woman could be president? How terrible. Why shouldn't I be capable to do all that my brother can?

You know, once upon a time people sought to prove with science that women and minorities had inferior brains/intelligence to white men (and even prove that groups like the Irish were inferior to other whites) so that they could validate their bigotry. It is denounced now for a reason.

If it is not my brain that stops me from attaining my goals, then what? Have children, don't have children, stay home, don't stay home, be a doctor, be a teacher, be a baker.. why should anyone have limits to what they can do? It is up to the individual to decide what is right for them - not an outsider.

Lets all work our hineys off and have little time. Like hamsters in a treadmill.

I think your issue may be with capitalism, if that's how you feel. The only people trapped in the "rat race" are people who believe money and material goods to be the be all and end all of life.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Life circumstances aside....

The possibility of choice now exists, where it was once not a -right- that we had.

I still say the -right- to have this choice (whether or not your personal circumstances allow a particular option) is a precious one and not to be thought of as anything less.

Just because you cannot manage to go to vote in an election due to life circumstances does not mean you have lost your right to vote.

So this choice of the ability to work or not work.....does not go away just because any one of us in not currently in a particular position to take advantage of it.

Sadly there will always be those of us who in effect do not have the ability to exercise this right to chose, but it does not mean our right was -taken away- by others....

unless you really want to start the whole 'the man is out to get me' argument....

 

[C-dot]

I do feel sorry for the women who really desire to have the choice and cannot now. Very sorry.

I think you are misinterpreting lack of money and high taxes as a feminist problem. The cost of living today is very high - Women who would like to stay home are often forced to work, or be put out in the streets. That is not a feminist cause, or even a choice, its purely economical.

PS. Not everyone here is religious, or a Christian. The Bible is not a valid explanation for how you feel.

 

[Foofoogal]

My whole jest is to have women call their own shots. Period. Not other women.

 

[SayCici]

My whole jest is to have women call their own shots. Period. Not other women.

Thank you for making this clear! It only solidifies for me, however, that maybe you are misinterpreting feminism. No one wants to force women out of the home, or keep them there if it is not what they want.

Thank you Miss Neecerie for hitting the nail on the head! The opportunity for me to go to med school is there, it doesn't mean I can or am going to take it.

 

[C-dot]

My whole jest is to have women call their own shots. Period. Not other women.

You have just made a statement supporting feminism - Being allowed to call the shots instead of being the "weaker" sex.

Thanks to feminism, letting other people call the shots for you is now a choice.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I do feel sorry for the women who really desire to have the choice and cannot now. Very sorry.
Like Lizzies mom feeling cheated these women should feel cheated. They have been and are:
By other women. Women like Gloria and Bella and others.
I guarantee there are millions like Amy Jeanne. Women who want to stay home with their babies and make a home.

I think the point, though, is that my mother and others in the same boat weren't betrayed by "feminist thinking" -- as I said, my mother had no idea what feminism was. And I personally don't feel betrayed by it -- I just don't feel a lot of what I call "academic feminism" is relevant to my life, the kind of feminism that burns up barrels of ink dissecting the subtexts of cultural oppression found in 1930s two-reel comedies, or the kind of stuff turned out by women who collect six-figure speaking fees to complain about how oppressed *they* are. It's thinking that emphasizes issues and concerns for women that simply aren't part of the world I was raised in, and which do nothing for women like me -- I didn't grow up middle class in suburbia, and if I've felt any kind of cultural oppression in my life it was *from* middle-class types looking down their turned-up snoots at me. So I don't spend too much time worrying about their issues -- I figure they can fight their own battles without my help.

As far as *practical* feminism goes, equal pay for equal work, fair education and all that, I don't see how any thinking woman could disagree with those things. Those were issues being fought for by women long before the sixties -- Eleanor Roosevelt was a strong champion of such during the thirties -- and they're still being fought for today. As they should be.

 

[C-dot]

As far as *practical* feminism goes, equal pay for equal work, fair education and all that, I don't see how any thinking woman could disagree with those things. Those were issues being fought for by women long before the sixties -- Eleanor Roosevelt was a strong champion of such during the thirties -- and they're still being fought for today. As they should be.

Beautifully written - I think a lot of us here hold this view at least.

 

[Foofoogal]

As far as *practical* feminism goes, equal pay for equal work, fair education and all that, I don't see how any thinking woman could disagree with those things. Those were issues being fought for by women long before the sixties -- Eleanor Roosevelt was a strong champion of such during the thirties -- and they're still being fought for today. As they should be.

I agree with this. I just don't call it feminism.

It's thinking that emphasizes issues and concerns for women that simply aren't part of the world I was raised in, and which do nothing for women like me

this is what I mean also. Sounds like your mother was betrayed by one man and so did not afford her or you the luxury of choice. This does and did happen. Reality.
This is very different from what I am suggesting.
One thing for a man to betray. Quite different for women to betray women.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think you are misinterpreting lack of money and high taxes as a feminist problem. The cost of living today is very high - Women who would like to stay home are often forced to work, or be put out in the streets. That is not a feminist cause, or even a choice, its purely economical..

That's exactly what I was trying to get at in discussing how middle-class feminism tends to overlook the issues of working-class women -- if economic fairness isn't a feminist cause, maybe we should be wondering why it isn't? Unless choice only means choice for people who can afford it.

PS. Not everyone here is religious, or a Christian. The Bible is not a valid explanation for how you feel.

Well, it's a valid explanation for how *she* feels, but isn't binding on anyone who doesn't share that belief.

 

[SayCici]

Beautifully written - I think a lot of us here hold this view at least.

Yes! And whether or not you call it feminism, that's what it is.

That's exactly what I was trying to get at in discussing how middle-class feminism tends to overlook the issues of working-class women -- if economic fairness isn't a feminist cause, maybe we should be wondering why it isn't? Unless choice only means choice for people who can afford it.

Of course not, but can you elaborate? I think you have a lot more experience/knowledge on this issue. Labor unions come to mind?

 

[LizzieMaine]

I agree with this. I just don't call it feminism.

I prefer to call it "common sense," myself, but if others want to call it feminism, I have no problem with that. It was called such well before the sixties came along -- the problem with the term is that it's been attatched to so many different specific causes over the years, it means whatever we want to interpret it to mean -- and we end up yelling it at each other and not listening to what anyone else is saying.

One thing for a man to betray. Quite different for women to betray womenthis is what I mean also.this is what I mean also.

Well, no one ever told my mother what to do, and I don't think any thinking woman today should let any other man, woman, or cultural/social/political group tell her what to do either -- once again that's no "ism", it's just common sense.

 

[SayCici]

I prefer to call it "common sense," myself, but if others want to call it feminism, I have no problem with that. It was called such well before the sixties came along -- the problem with the term is that it's been attatched to so many different specific causes over the years, it means whatever we want to interpret it to mean -- and we end up yelling it at each other and not listening to what anyone else is saying.

I agree that it does seem like it'd just be common sense, but I think the reason it's feminism is because people had to make people aware of the issue and fight for it. Later, reading a history book, of course it seems like "oh, well, DUH, that's only right".

The thing about all the different "flavors" of feminism though, is that at least they all have different names. "Nu" or "post-wave", just like religions have different sects. The whole body of water shouldn't be tainted just because you don't like certain branches.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Yes! And whether or not you call it feminism, that's what it is.


Of course not, but can you elaborate? I think you have a lot more experience/knowledge on this issue. Labor unions come to mind?

Welllll, we can't get into anything political here, so I can't go into detail. But it's no coincidence that many of the pre-sixties feminist leaders were from a labor-oriented background. There's a good reason why Frances Perkins was the Secretary of Labor, for example.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The thing about all the different "flavors" of feminism though, is that at least they all have different names. "Nu" or "post-wave", just like religions have different sects. The whole body of water shouldn't be tainted just because you don't like certain branches.

That's a perfect comparison. I think a lot of people hold to a particular strain of feminist theory just as vociferously as others might hold to a particular religious creed, and become just as unwilling to hear any viewpoint that disagrees with that creed. People get so wound up over points of dogma that they lose sight of what they have in common.

 

[cecil]

That's a perfect comparison. I think a lot of people hold to a particular strain of feminist theory just as vociferously as others might hold to a particular religious creed, and become just as unwilling to hear any viewpoint that disagrees with that creed. People get so wound up over points of dogma that they lose sight of what they have in common.

A few pages back, Lady Day said that Feminism was "like the colour blue". Pretty accurate!

 

[C-dot]

Well, it's a valid explanation for how *she* feels, but isn't binding on anyone who doesn't share that belief.

Yes, that is what I was trying to say - "You" in general. Thanks!

The thing about all the different "flavors" of feminism though, is that at least they all have different names. "Nu" or "post-wave", just like religions have different sects. The whole body of water shouldn't be tainted just because you don't like certain branches.

People get so wound up over points of dogma that they lose sight of what they have in common.

I agree! For this reason, I thinks its so very important, before entering a discussion, to go back and look at the fundamentals of the subject. Religions and -isms are built on ideas - The dogma is added later. The whole thing becomes very convoluted and difficult to understand.