Sandpaper or Emery Paper?

Discussion in 'Hats' started by DRB, Apr 13, 2011.

  1. ChicagoWayVito

    ChicagoWayVito A-List Customer

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    443
    I know it just as a spinning table. I built my own table using a decent sized DC motor a couple of pulleys, a shaft, and I installed an electronic motor controller on mine. I can control the speed by turning a potentiometer. In fact tomorrow I am making an adjustment to my table. Maybe I'll post some pictures after I upgrade it.

    You don't need the electronic motor controller on it like mine but most DC motors will provide too much RPM so you need to use pulleys of different sizes to reduce the speed. Small pulley on the motor shaft and larger pulley on the offset shaft will give you a reduction. The other thing you need though is a spinning plate that goes over the shaft that your block will sit on. For that Part I just picked one up from JW Hats. In fact JW will build you an entire spinner assembly that you mount to your own table but it is expensive (that's why I made my own :)).
     
    bolthead likes this.
  2. bolthead

    bolthead My Mail is Forwarded Here

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    Would like to see it.
     
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  3. LuvMyMan

    LuvMyMan Vendor

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    It would appear you are getting serious in making some hats now! It will be great to see what you make!
     
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  4. RJR

    RJR

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    +1
     
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  5. ChicagoWayVito

    ChicagoWayVito A-List Customer

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    Ok, I will try to get some pictures of it today or tomorrow. I need to do one more thing to it before I post a picture and right now I am on babysitting duty :)

    Thanks, yeah I am getting pretty serious about hats. I work in tech and see what I think is age discrimination going on, I don't currently need to worry about that but my plan is to get a hat making business going and build up a clientele and reputation in case that day comes and I have become "too old" so to speak. So this is my retirement plan honestly. I have a good long ways to go before that I hit that age, I haven't turned 40 yet but I like to be prepared for uncertainty.

    I currently have a hat body on the block right now. I let it dry on the block for a week and then today I spent an hour ironing it. Pouncing tomorrow! Between what I have learned from Jim at JW Hats and Tim at Alley Kat Hat Co, this should turn out real nice and I will post pictures when it is completed. Tim is mentoring me through text messages and sending pictures of the work. Since I am doing this hat without machinery, it will be a little while. Even pouncing this one will be by hand and not on my spinning table (allows me to compare hand finish to spinner table finish).

    I've mentioned before on another thread that currently I have a single block but after September I will have 24 blocks, 12 sizes in two different styles. Well the styles are similar, one set has a 5.5 inch crown and the other has a 6 inch crown.
     
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  6. ChicagoWayVito

    ChicagoWayVito A-List Customer

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    443
    Ok, here are pictures of my spinning table. Please note that I am not a wood worker, this was my first wood working project. Also I did not build this table initially to be a hatters workbench but it evolved into that direction. The table is made from pine and mdf. Apparently I had a couple cans stored on top and they leaked into the mdf, not a big deal and I can always replace the mdf as it is only held down by gravity. I have a quick 30 second video of me turning it on and showing the speed control and then turning it off. I will try to get it posted soon, just need to get it off of my phone.

    Front View, the spinner is on top. The shaft is 3 foot long, it was originally a 12 inch shaft but when I put tension on the belt found it was pulling the shaft out of alignment. With 3 foot shaft I still have room to raise and lower it as I need. The red spinner was manufactured by JW Hats. The table is 7 foot wide and just over 2 foot deep. I placed it on locking casters so I can move it around easily. The motor is a 2400 RPM motor that came a lathe. I reduce the RPMs in half by using two different belt pulley sizes. The box on the front is the on/off and controls the speed even further.

    IMAG0642a.jpg


    The motor is mounted to a bracket that has horizontal tension control so I can easily take the belt off. The bracket itself is attached to a custom cage that I built out of 80/20 aluminum extrusion, I drilled and tapped all the holes by hand.
    IMAG0643a.jpg IMAG0645a.jpg IMAG0644a.jpg


    I learned a lot building this and if I did it again I would change the design but this still works great. I still have shelf space for blocks to go on as well.
    I hope you liked seeing my version of a spinner table.
     
    steur, Tukwila, RECAPITATE and 4 others like this.
  7. ChicagoWayVito

    ChicagoWayVito A-List Customer

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  8. RJR

    RJR

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    Nice job.
     
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  9. JessieJames

    JessieJames One of the Regulars

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    Hopefully you'll see this, a bit old. What type of 1200 sandpaper are you using? the ones for car? Wet or dry?
     
    steur and Tukwila like this.
  10. suitedcboy

    suitedcboy One Too Many

    The post you quote has "3M, wet or dry" I'm not sure if it the tan or black grit makes a difference at that point. Wet or dry sandpaper is the better quality that doesn't as readily allow flaking of the grit media if the paper is bent. I have used whatever I had laying around and saw no difference in how the felt pounced from the paper but the cheap brown grit no-name sandpaper brands lost the grit when I folded the paper and 3M paper does little of that. Felt is not harsh on the paper so the grit hardness seems to not matter like it does when sanding a car or hardwood. Light consistent pressure is key. Hard pressure will take the loose surface hairs off and you are then sanding the shellacked "core" (there might be hatter's word for this) and it will look like a bald spot. I think hatter's also develop a method of pouncing where they do a step and then spray the hat with denatured alcohol/water mix or some other proprietary concoction to make the shallac settle below surface. The alcohol spray and then lighting the hat on fire (no trim band attached when this is done I would think) takes loose hairs away and also can tighten the felting as heat does shrink felt. The alcohol spray for this step also likely acts to disperse and settle the shellac into the felt away from surface.
    I have several 100% beaver hats and have pounced several of them to get a finer finish to my taste. Since these have been pounced already I never have had to use the coarse grits and only used 800, 1000, 1200. I tried 1500 once but it didn't seem to do anything. I like velvetty finish and I don't always get it but it gets closer to that from successive finer sanding that takes away any hint of a hair shaft poking out of the felt.
    I want a helmet stiff western hat when it is over 4 1/2 brim so I did some stiffening using BullsEye shellac cut with denatured alcohol. It stiffened the felt just like I wanted but on a darker gray hat I ended with with mottled lighter areas. The spots faded when the hat got wet and after a few rains that is about unnoticeable. The diluted denatured spray seems to be what I should have done to disperse the shellac.
    I had a blast doing my pouncing exercises and liked the results. I have a 50/50 beaver-rabbit mix wide brimmed hat I bought and it didn't respond as well as the beavers to sanding but still is a better looking and feeling hat after my efforts.
    Good luck with your project.
     
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  11. JessieJames

    JessieJames One of the Regulars

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    239
    Location:
    Montreal, QC
    Hm that's a little scary I don't know if I'll attempt this or not. I was thinking of going to a hardware store next to my house and getting a 1200 sanding block which would help with the even pressure (I have a flat brim anyway) and just going at it softly a few times to see if I can get the small hairs out or shorten them so it's more velvety everywhere because right now it's a bit too uneven for my taste.

    It's exactly how I like it on the underside where the crown and brim meet under the hat because that part is rounded so when the hatter was sanding it was easy to get a nice and smooth finish but that finish isn't carried over to the rest of the hat unfortunately. I've come to appreciate the hat anyway with time but every time I pick it up and wear it there is still a part of me that is wanting for that extra finish
     
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  12. JessieJames

    JessieJames One of the Regulars

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    239
    Location:
    Montreal, QC
    So I got some 1000 grit sandpaper since the store didn't have 1200 and 1500 seemed too high, I just wrapped it around a deck of cards and went slow and steady and even and it wasn't that scary. Seemed to have evened out some parts a little.

    One thing though, I had taken the hat to another hatter during a visit and they "evened" out the hat with a 320 grit (oof, I wanted it more finished and 320 seems too coarse) and it's a bit patchy now the color under. It only shows in some light, I mentioned it right away and she said it is normal cuz it's fresh but it's been a week now. Will that go away? Is that the whole thing about sanding to the core? My hat is a very light sand silverbelly I'm almost tempted to bring the hat to the beach one day and let the sand kind of color the hat back
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
    AbbaDatDeHat likes this.
  13. AbbaDatDeHat

    AbbaDatDeHat I'll Lock Up

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    5,708
    Pics??
     
  14. JessieJames

    JessieJames One of the Regulars

    Messages:
    239
    Location:
    Montreal, QC
    quite hard to capture in photo but you can see it here, in some lights it doesn't show much and in others you can see it
    it definitely wasn't there before I can tell you that
    20190918_155235_1.jpg
     
  15. AbbaDatDeHat

    AbbaDatDeHat I'll Lock Up

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    Thanks JJ.
    Not sure what hat you started with from a quality felt standpoint and assuming you are a perfectionist, it’s very possible you have met the point of diminished returns with this hat.
    By no means does that mean it looks poor!
    Quite the contrary.
    That’s a pretty white hat and they show everything!

    B
     
  16. JessieJames

    JessieJames One of the Regulars

    Messages:
    239
    Location:
    Montreal, QC
    100% beaver Winchester, I saw the hatter go at it with a 320 in the other direction mind you (she was going CCW underside), she said it doesn't matter which direction you're going so long as you keep the same direction, and I was cringing the entire time but I didn't want to tell a hatter they don't know what they're doing because they're supposed to know more than me when it comes to hats. IE I'm not the expert on this matter
     
    AbbaDatDeHat likes this.
  17. AbbaDatDeHat

    AbbaDatDeHat I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    5,708
    B873A67B-157A-4FC9-AEBA-B16F5AFA5C7D.jpeg BB1C1309-25A3-464D-95A5-8F92C53B49E7.jpeg 632916E7-C31D-428C-84E1-AB9D7B90EB9A.jpeg These pics show what you want to avoid at all costs.
    The hat is a gorgeous sugar white Knox Forty that someone (not me) got heavy handed with the sandpaper. I’m sure at some point they said “just a little more”.
    Talc powder may?? make the mottled area match but the damage is there.
    Just be careful JJ.
    Good luck. Bowen
    Ps: i’m afraid to even try and level it out!!
     
  18. JessieJames

    JessieJames One of the Regulars

    Messages:
    239
    Location:
    Montreal, QC
    that looks indented, I haven't gotten to that point but I'm putting the sandpaper away and appreciating the hat for what it is. I might at some point try putting some sand (whenever I get somewhere with sand) to "dirty it up" underneath lightly to get the patchiness even, but what I did do is use the powder to clean hats rub it in with my fingers and palm, and with the orange hat sponge clean it off and then brush, and it seems to have mildly improved it, it even made it softer to the hand but a little hairier. I'm going to let the under side of the brim face a window with sun for a few days as well and see if that does anything.

    I shall leave it there for now (no more sanding), all learning experiences.
     
    AbbaDatDeHat likes this.

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