The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[alanfgag]

Looking for some help identifying the age of a Borsalino I inherited. My grandmother told me it was purchased in about 1948. Some folks on a different thread recommended I bring it to the experts. Can someone give me some direction on the age of this hat?

Good looking coffin box hat, although that box is not the usual triangular shaped box we tend to see for those hats. Not forties, but mid to late fifties. The first word on the label is the name for the colour. Amiata (lover) is a popular colour. The second word is the model name and it is one of the great remaining mysteries of Borsalino. If you can come up with a solution to that one we will all pitch in for a prize, I'm sure.
This model name is actually one I haven't seen before.

I've had that model in "mufflone"... it is one of the few model names that has a direct translation in Italian. Not "fantastic" as we might imagine, but fantesca - a female domestic servant... which helps about as much as not knowing at all. ;^)

 

[steur]

I've had that model in "mufflone"... it is one of the few model names that has a direct translation in Italian. Not "fantastic" as we might imagine, but fantesca - a female domestic servant... which helps about as much as not knowing at all. ;^)

View attachment 484609 View attachment 484610

Now how can I forget a hat like that? That just isn't right. Such a gorgeous hat.

 

[mayserwegener]

Echter Borsalino, shred of a Paper Label, measures 58 cm, possibly 1920s. This Stiff Felt turned out to be a very unique find. I have never seen this type of super offset Bow. Great form and very high quality components.

 

[MikeinRome]

Another orphaned Borsalino velour. A 2X fedora, color Narvalo. Has 2 1/4 inch brim.

 

[MikeinRome]

Borsalino Homburg, Extra Extra Superiore. Color Rutene.

 

[MikeinRome]

Black Borsalino Homburg. Has OPS tag from 1951-53.

 

[Steve1857]

Echter Borsalino, shred of a Paper Label, measures 58 cm, possibly 1920s. This Stiff Felt turned out to be a very unique find. I have never seen this type of super offset Bow. Great form and very high quality components.

Again, Steve, a truly wonderful find.

The sweat looks thick and supple. The liner, logo, and other accoutrements say 1920s to me, too.

 

[mayserwegener]

Again, Steve, a truly wonderful find.

The sweat looks thick and supple. The liner, logo, and other accoutrements say 1920s to me, too.

Steve, Thank you again! Yes I agree. I was trying to find some later info on the shop but the latest I could find was the early 1900s.

 

[steur]

Echter Borsalino, shred of a Paper Label, measures 58 cm, possibly 1920s. This Stiff Felt turned out to be a very unique find. I have never seen this type of super offset Bow. Great form and very high quality components.

Fantastic find, Steve. Wonderful condition for its age as well.

 

[steur]

Black Borsalino Homburg. Has OPS tag from 1951-53.

Superb examples of Borsalino quality, Mike. And the "ledaela" is a new model name to boot. Very cool.

 

[MikeinRome]

Superb examples of Borsalino quality, Mike. And the "ledaela" is a new model name to boot. Very cool.

Thanks, Stefan! I've got another Black Homburg coming and will post it.

 

[skylize]

Maybe I have joined the Brotherhood?... ???... ‍

---

Got this pretty little black trilby with a Qualita Superiore liner and gold print on the sweat that seems to be that of Borsalino, plus a cute little "feet" pin on the bow.

(Hat sits a a little high in the photos because of being too small, but pretty sure it's close enough for stretching.)

There are some very weird things about this hat though. Is it altogether fake? pretending to be of higher quality than advertised? or is it only victim to a half-assed repair? I am too new the learning about good hats to know what I've got here.

---

The liner says Qualita Superiore, and the sweat says XXX. So, I am expecting an extremely high quality felt with a fair amount of beaver. Seemingly in line with that:

The felt is in great condition, with rich black color and only some extremely minor indications of use and aging. Namely there is shrinkage compared to the indicated size (we'll get to size labeling later), very few moth bites that are quite shallow, some discolored matting on the bottom of the brim in the back, and bleaching of the surface level felt along the raw edge.

(The black color shows up better in the selfies, but here are some close-ups.)

I can measure 2.5mm thickness at the edge of the felt. It feels exceedingly sturdy, yet also flexible. I can twist the hat in pretty much any direction, and it will pop back into shape instantly.

But not yet having touched any other hat "beaver" hat, nor any other Borsalino, I don't have a clue whether this is what 3X Borsalino should feel like. And so this is where it starts to get awkward.

First is the "XXX" even existing on the sweat. From what I can gather, Borsalino is not currently X-labeling anything. Was that something they did in the past?

Combine that with the gold paint being ridiculously blurry, and I've got myself what looks like a red flag.

So I'm going to blindly assume for a moment that there is no problem there, and continue with describing the the strange repair.

With the size label missing, we've got the size now hand written (in ballpoint pin?) on the liner.

We've got non-uniform, light-colored stitching that seems to be aimed at securing the wrapper around the reed. Totally mystifying, because the reed it is supposed to wrap is missing in action.

Also the sweatband is held to the hat by quite sparsely stitched, very uneven, black thread, but I forgot to get a picture of that.

Big long, visible thread securing the ribbon.

We've got the lazy stitching of the liner to the hat. (I would expect pretty loose and sparse stitching here once the liner has been out, but this looks super-extra-lazy to my eyes.)

The wackiest part is in the liner. Sewn in behind the logo, we find what appears to be a page from an Ecuadorian newspaper stacked on what looks like perhaps a business' Financial Report sewn behind the cap.

If there were any paper labels in here, they are now lost to history, and no printing on the inside of the crown.

I definitely think I have a high quality hat here. And it seems like someone trying to fake something would have avoided such obvious attention-grabbers as the newspaper+financials sewed into the liner. What do you think?

 

[belfastboy]

Maybe I have joined the Brotherhood?... ???... ‍

---

Got this pretty little black trilby with a Qualita Superiore liner and gold print on the sweat that seems to be that of Borsalino, plus a cute little "feet" pin on the bow.

(Hat sits a a little high in the photos because of being too small, but pretty sure it's close enough for stretching.)

There are some very weird things about this hat though. Is it altogether fake? pretending to be of higher quality than advertised? or is it only victim to a half-assed repair? I am too new the learning about good hats to know what I've got here.

---

The liner says Qualita Superiore, and the sweat says XXX. So, I am expecting an extremely high quality felt with a fair amount of beaver. Seemingly in line with that:

The felt is in great condition, with rich black color and only some extremely minor indications of use and aging. Namely there is shrinkage compared to the indicated size (we'll get to size labeling later), very few moth bites that are quite shallow, some discolored matting on the bottom of the brim in the back, and bleaching of the surface level felt along the raw edge.

(The black color shows up better in the selfies, but here are some close-ups.)

I can measure 2.5mm thickness at the edge of the felt. It feels exceedingly sturdy, yet also flexible. I can twist the hat in pretty much any direction, and it will pop back into shape instantly.

But not yet having touched any other hat "beaver" hat, nor any other Borsalino, I don't have a clue whether this is what 3X Borsalino should feel like. And so this is where it starts to get awkward.

First is the "XXX" even existing on the sweat. From what I can gather, Borsalino is not currently X-labeling anything. Was that something they did in the past?

Combine that with the gold paint being ridiculously blurry, and I've got myself what looks like a red flag.

So I'm going to blindly assume for a moment that there is no problem there, and continue with describing the the strange repair.

With the size label missing, we've got the size now hand written (in ballpoint pin?) on the liner.

We've got non-uniform, light-colored stitching that seems to be aimed at keeping the leather wrapping tight around the reed. Also the sweatband is held to the hat by quite sparsely stitched, very uneven, black thread, but I forgot to get a picture of that.

Big long, visible thread securing the ribbon.

We've got the lazy stitching of the liner to the hat. (I would expect pretty loose and sparse stitching here once the liner has been out, but this looks super-extra-lazy to my eyes.)

The wackiest part is in the liner. Sewn in behind the logo, we find what appears to be a page from an Ecuadorian newspaper stacked on what looks like perhaps a business' Financial Report sewn behind the cap.

If there were any paper labels in here, they are now lost to history, and no printing on the inside of the crown.

I definitely think I have a high quality hat here. And it seems like someone trying to fake something would have avoided such obvious attention-grabbers as the newspaper+financials sewed into the liner. What do you think?

Not sure what you have there. Perhaps a Franken hat.......pieced together from odds & sods and put together at the kitchen table.. The brim has been cut down....looks like a home table top job The sweat band has likely been replaced....poorly. Borsalino, even in their crappy phase would never sew a crown ribbon like that....no hatter would. The little bow on the leather sweat is a new one of poor quality. And that newspaper in the liner is a real head scratcher. If you didn't pay much for it and you enjoy wearing then wear it and enjoy.

 

[Blare]

Not sure what you have there. Perhaps a Franken hat.......pieced together from odds & sods and put together at the kitchen table.. The brim has been cut down....looks like a home table top job The sweat band has likely been replaced....poorly. Borsalino, even in their crappy phase would never sew a crown ribbon like that....no hatter would. The little bow on the leather sweat is a new one of poor quality. And that newspaper in the liner is a real head scratcher. If you didn't pay much for it and you enjoy wearing then wear it and enjoy.

I’m pretty sure that thread on the ribbon are basting stitches. My understanding was they were used to secure the ribbon in place so the hats could be stacked during shipping and at stores. Meant to be removed at/after purchase. Though to find them still there years later… much like a price hang tag is very cool and I usually keep when I find.

I was going to take a guess that maybe this hat was made under license. But without a doubt the newspaper stitched into the liner tip is nothing I’ve ever seen!

@skylize just to note…. Most Borsalino are made of some combination rabbit/hare. My understanding is beaver wasn’t as widely available resource in Italy. They did use XX, XXX and XXXXX designations on some hats… but was generally marketing ploy if I remember what @Daniele Tanto has said.

 

[skylize]

If you didn't pay much for it and you enjoy wearing then wear it and enjoy.

Just barely cheap enough that I would feel super-awkward trying to return it. I have no reason to think it was sold in bad faith. And it's still attractive with a good high-quality body.

I just pray I am successful getting it to hold enough of a stretch. If I need to try and resell this thing now, I haven't a clue how to describe it in a way that doesn't scare off buyers at even half what I paid.

 

[skylize]

Most Borsalino are made of some combination rabbit/hare. ... They did use XX, XXX and XXXXX designations on some hats… but was generally marketing ploy

So you don't think they threw some beaver into the mix to go with those labels?

I know they sell beaver now (Beaver Medium Brim). But new owners means new ways of doing things, so doesn't mean all that much regarding older products.

 

[belfastboy]

So you don't think they threw some beaver into the mix to go with those labels?

I know they sell beaver now (Beaver Medium Brim). But new owners means new ways of doing things, so doesn't mean all that much regarding older products.

As one of my hatter friends answered me when I queried him about the number of X's on a hat label. He replied that it might mean that a stray beaver happened to walk through the shop floor the day they felted this batch so they slapped some X's on the label.

 

[belfastboy]

I’m pretty sure that thread on the ribbon are basting stitches. My understanding was they were used to secure the ribbon in place so the hats could be stacked during shipping and at stores. Meant to be removed at/after purchase. Though to find them still there years later… much like a price hang tag is very cool and I usually keep when I find.

I was going to take a guess that maybe this hat was made under license. But without a doubt the newspaper stitched into the liner tip is nothing I’ve ever seen!

@skylize just to note…. Most Borsalino are made of some combination rabbit/hare. My understanding is beaver wasn’t as widely available resource in Italy. They did use XX, XXX and XXXXX designations on some hats… but was generally marketing ploy if I remember what @Daniele Tanto has said.

The most off putting aspect, among many, is the square edge on the brim. It looks like it was trimmed with an exacto knife and the edges not buffed smooth/rounded.

 

[mayserwegener]

Fantastic find, Steve. Wonderful condition for its age as well.

Stefan, Thanks again! I think I will wear this Melone later today.

 

[Blare]

The most off putting aspect, among many, is the square edge on the brim. It looks like it was trimmed with an exacto knife and the edges not buffed smooth/rounded.

Agreed! Definitely looks trimmed. The ribbon treatment is nice though.