The Zoot Suit

[Chas]

The Zoot Suit had a cultural significance that was obviously missed in the swing revival, and as a follow up to part of the thread on the swing movement, I thought that I would link to a page that explains this in a manner that I probably couldn't, or more likely, don't have the time, to do.

http://invention.smithsonian.org/centerpieces/whole_cloth/u7sf/u7materials/cosgrove.html

That being said, I wouldn't be CAUGHT DEAD in one. I, for one, don't believe in cultural appropriation. I wouldn't wear zoot any more than I would dreadlocks.

 

[kpreed]

I totally agree! If it is not part of your culture... leave it alone!

 

[Josephine]

I totally agree! If it is not part of your culture... leave it alone!

So I should send my sushi dinner back to the restaurant and only eat bratwurst and steak and kidney pie? All my friends should stop shopping at Ikea? Toss my French perfume?

 

[Chas]

No, that's not what I meant. The zoot suit has a cultural and social significance. Wearing a kilt of the McGregor tartan is fine if you're a McGregor, or a kin to the clan. If you wear it because it's cool, or you have kilt fetish, then what you are doing is cultural appropriation. Particularly if you make a bunch of $$ selling McGregor tartans to fellow your kilt fetishists. It's also understandable if a McGregor takes exception to it.

It's a form of flattery that takes on a negative or exploitative aspect, or it is done with ignorance of the history or social/cultural significance of it.

Eating sushi or wearing French perfume makes you a consumer of culture, not an appropriator.

Cultural appropriation is the adoption of some specific elements of one culture by a different cultural group. It denotes acculturation or assimilation, but often connotes a negative view towards acculturation from a minority culture by a dominant culture.

 

[reetpleat]

As a Latino who is very interesteed in Mexican and Mexican marican culture, Iappreciate your concern and I have the sem concerns.

On the other hand, where is the line between cultural appropriation and clutural adoption. Let's face it. Swing ang blues are cultural appropriation, comodification, or adoption. It is all a matter of intent I guess.

Back in the day, there were white kids who wore zootsuits, although by then it was usually constumish and perhaps they might have been at risk of a good ass kicking, I don't know. But it was not unheard of. Further, apparently there wre gangs of whote zoot suiters in LA. Many white kids grew up in mexian neighborhoods and adopted much culture. Por Oakies and Arkies and Irish mainly. From the essey:

"the existence of gangs of white American zoot-suiters, and the opinions of Mexican-American servicemen stationed in California, who were part of the war effort but who refused to take part in vigilante raids on pachuco hangouts. "

But I do have a objections. As a latino/Mexican American, I guess I get a pass. In SF I put a zoot outfit together in much the same way many kids did. Longish jacket that happend to be very long and trim on me, altered ski pants actually, although altered suit pants would probably be more authentic, and a real vintage cowboy had with a huge brim recrowned in a fedora style with a feather. Gaberdine shirt buttoned up with Tie, cruciform around my neck and chain from pocket. Pointy hipster vintage white shoes. I think I was more authentic looking than anyone in a new zoot suit. Wish I had pics.

But I alwys did feel a little funny about lots of people wearing them. Not exactly because it was clutural appropriation. But because it was era appropriation done in the worst way. The zoot suits I saw were all cheap ugly pieces of crap. Further, you put one on a dorky guy or some eighty year old codger and it loses all cultural significance. I wouldn't really object to one worn by a white guy who had a real vintage aesthetic sense and could bring some style to it. But then, it still better be decent quality.

So, in the end I suppose I object to it being worn by anyone who can't pull it off and do justice to the cultural history as either a minority identity or a hip jazz look.

I don't object to their popularity in Mexican American culture today. They rent them for parties and wedding and such. But I do object to how ugly and cheap they are. Even the people that claim to be using authentic patterns and such. I don't buy it and even if they are, they are still tacky ugly fabric.

 

[kpreed]

So I should send my sushi dinner back to the restaurant and only eat bratwurst and steak and kidney pie? All my friends should stop shopping at Ikea? Toss my French perfume?

Someone I think, needs a time-out. Sushi and French perfume are products not a form of the country's culture, I hope.

 

[Twitch]

And as Edward Olmos said in the play itself when another character was getting a bit jacked up and over dramatic, "Relax esse, it's just a play!"

 

[Nick D]

fftopic:

All of the Scots I know (and by that I mean people who were born and raised in Scotland, not just of Scottish descent) are and have been supportive of my being interested in their history and culture and like that I wear the kilt and care enough to wear it well. Only one elderly gentleman cared, as to whether or not I was a MacDonald (I'm not), and that had to do with the clans' history, my kilt is MacBeth.

The cultural/historical aspect is that most of the modern ideas of clan tartans, etc. are quite recent. The Scottish Tartans Museum has a very good website, with a short piece on the development of tartan.

http://www.scottishtartans.org/tartan.html

You may now return to your regularly scheduled zoot suits.

 

[reetpleat]

And as Edward Olmos said in the play itself when another character was getting a bit jacked up and over dramatic, "Relax esse, it's just a play!"

Don't try to outpachuco me, esse.

 

[Twitch]

Orale vato! Calma te!

 

[Benny Holiday]

I posted in another thread about zoot suits the significance of the style in Australia as a hip jazz look amongst the Bodgies, the Swing and R'n'B aficionados who dug American jazz and its fashion and whose second generation evolved into the rockers of the 1950's. Ironically, it was visiting American servicemen who introduced the look to this country, and its association was not with an ethnic group but with a youth movement centred around music, dance and fashion. In that sense, the cultural appropriation was one of Australians imitating Americans (hence the name Bodgie, an Aussie slang term for something fake or not well done. The term was a shortening of Bodgie Yank, that is, a wanna-be American). Of course, today American music and fashion is followed by kids all over the world, but back then it was new and following the US trends was frowned upon heavily.

My tailor has made me two exquisite zoot suits that I've worn on stage and out to dances. The longer coats and wider trouser legs pegged at the bottom still attract major attention from young men who all want to know where the smart but streetwise-looking garments come from. 65 years later, the look still has a great appeal to young men who would like to get 'dressed up' and see the modern conservative suit as being too 'square' in its cut. For all its vintage, the zoot look still has a lot of hipness and even a hint of danger about it, perhaps even a connection to hip hop for them in its longer and wider lines (especially the wide-kneed trousers).

 

[Feraud]

The longer coats and wider trouser legs pegged at the bottom still attract major attention from young men who all want to know where the smart but streetwise-looking garments come from. 65 years later, the look still has a great appeal to young men who would like to get 'dressed up' and see the modern conservative suit as being too 'square' in its cut. For all its vintage, the zoot look still has a lot of hipness and even a hint of danger about it, perhaps even a connection to hip hop for them in its longer and wider lines (especially the wide-kneed trousers).

This is cool to ponder considering most if not all of the former symbols of rebellion (leather jackets, jeans, rock n roll, punk, etc.) have been corrupted by mainstream acceptance.

 

[Benny Holiday]

The zoot suit was/is obscure enough here to appear new to the 16-25 year age group today. As you point out Feraud, they've seen punk, leather jackets etc become absorbed by the mainstream, but they haven't ever seen an article of clothing that should be conservative (in that it's a suit) but yet manages to appear street-sharp. Of course, I'm not talking about one of those awful polyester glow-in-the-dark prom suits but an expertly-tailored suit of black wool gabardine, so that no doubt helps! lol

 

[catsmeow]

The Zoot Suit had a cultural significance that was obviously missed in the swing revival, and as a follow up to part of the thread on the swing movement, I thought that I would link to a page that explains this in a manner that I probably couldn't, or more likely, don't have the time, to do.

http://invention.smithsonian.org/centerpieces/whole_cloth/u7sf/u7materials/cosgrove.html

That being said, I wouldn't be CAUGHT DEAD in one. I, for one, don't believe in cultural appropriation. I wouldn't wear zoot any more than I would dreadlocks.

I think modern swingers might avoid zoots because they are hard to find/expensive to recreate and might not suit everyone? Alot of the dancers I've come across hardly wear vintage anyway, so can't image them picking up on zoot suits, which is a shame. I do admire the ones here (in aust) that can wear them-good ones that is!!

 

[Benny Holiday]

So you mean my friend Paulie and me? lol lol lol I've only ever seen one other cat in a zoot suit here, it was a really cool dark grey tone-on-tone stripe suit he had made in America. But I haven't seen that guy in years!

 

[catsmeow]

So you mean my friend Paulie and me? lol lol lol I've only ever seen one other cat in a zoot suit here, it was a really cool dark grey tone-on-tone stripe suit he had made in America. But I haven't seen that guy in years!

Can you post picts of your zoots? or direct me to another thread you have posted in.

I saw a guy wearing one last year, it was cool, but not sure who he was.

 

[Benny Holiday]

I haven't got any recent pics. I have got some older photos at home I'll try to scan.

 

[catsmeow]

I haven't got any recent pics. I have got some older photos at home I'll try to scan.

That's fine..any will do.