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What are the makers that DO NOT 'skiv their leather or use glue'?

Aloysius

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Also, assuming truth in that statement, isn't the fault on the overzealous fans/vendors rather than the makers themselves then?

It's both. Depends on the company.

The overzealous American fans definitely help the bad actors get away with it, though, like how they tried to push the scam that is Conner's Sewing Factory for years.

But there are definitely such actors in the industry, some of whom make good stuff (like RMC, which goes around claiming the other brands are actually Chinese, or Fullcount, which tried to put TCB out of business when they just started, making them recall and destroy jeans), some of whom very much don't (like CSF).

EDIT: just saw that you added a section.

Also perhaps its my fault, but reading the statement: "but the fact that they do this takes more effort, not less. Skiving is not some super-skill. Every single leatherworker can do it." Made me think that you were placing skiving as some common run of the mill skill, and in some ways belittling it; but it could just be my reading comprehension.

No, I don't think skiving is a lesser skill. I was just indicating that skiving is the norm, and not skiving (which, like I keep saying, is arguably not a good idea!) takes more effort. I was responding to the accusation that not skiving was an act of laziness. That would be like saying I was too lazy to start my car, so I carried furniture by hand– totally unnecessary effort.

And my point is one does not take on unnecessary effort without a reason for it, be that reason justified or not.
 
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With the latest being quite evident in the Diamond Dave thread were he basically makes fun of DD for going out of business and having bad jackets.
Certainly nobody should be made fun of. That’s a shitty thing to do. I haven’t seen the post. Objectively though, DD did in fact make bad jackets. Even his biggest fan whose jacket lives in infamy had a weird jacket. The main zip stopped 3/4 of the way up!
 

dudewuttheheck

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Sorry, missed this one while I was replying.



Based on talking to the proprietors of the workwear shops in the US, all of whom insist Japanese is always the best.

No, the Japanese like the American stuff because of the 'heritage', which is why you also see things like Lee Archives Japan. It's not based on a claim that any place makes the ultimate, better than everywhere, stuff. The American marketing of Japanese workwear is based on such a claim.



I am not belittling skiving! I'm responding to AVS's claimed "general consensus" that Aero doesn't skive because of laziness. If you're lazy, you're not going to take on the insane task of sewing unskived seams of 4oz+ CXL steerhide!
I said this was what other makers have told me. I have absolutely no idea which is more difficult.
 

Blackadder

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Sorry, missed this one while I was replying.



Based on talking to the proprietors of the workwear shops in the US, all of whom insist Japanese is always the best.

No, the Japanese like the American stuff because of the 'heritage', which is why you also see things like Lee Archives Japan. It's not based on a claim that any place makes the ultimate, better than everywhere, stuff. The American marketing of Japanese workwear is based on such a claim.



I am not belittling skiving! I'm responding to AVS's claimed "general consensus" that Aero doesn't skive because of laziness. If you're lazy, you're not going to take on the insane task of sewing unskived seams of 4oz+ CXL steerhide!
I do agree that Japanese likes Western brands/imported goods. Langlitz is probably the holy grail in Japan. I asked the Vanson dealer in Japan which Vanson model he wears. He told me he wears Langlitz LOL. And yes Japanese got licence to use quite a few famous brands' trademark in addition to Lee. There are for example Burberry's Black and Blue, Givenchy (only on lighters and some accessories) and Lanvin en bleu. Burberry's had tried to buy back the licence before it ended but failed.
 
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red devil

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I have heard this from the proprietors of almost every workwear-related store in America…

So you had to deal with some aggressive salesmen in America, I haven't seen this at any of the dealers in London and of course not in Japan. I don't think these American dealers are as represntative of their brands as Ken Calder is of Aero, would you agree?



Well, if you haven't encountered it, be glad for that but these kinds of attacks and gimmicks are a big part of the 'workwear' brands' modus operandi. The recent madness with CSF is the most recent example.

What is CSF?

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say skiving is some copout technique. I said that not skiving does take additional (arguably useless) effort, so choosing that it is obviously very deliberate, whether or not one prefers the result.

I was replying to this, did I misinterpret it?

but the fact that they do this takes more effort, not less. Skiving is not some super-skill. Every single leatherworker can do it.
 

DorKlonn

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Certainly nobody should be made fun of. That’s a shitty thing to do. I haven’t seen the post. Objectively though, DD did in fact make bad jackets. Even his biggest fan whose jacket lives in infamy had a weird jacket. The main zip stopped 3/4 of the way up!

Not disagreeing on that, we can all agree that for a brief moment the infamous jacket made us all think twice haha. But, back to the point, I think it was just extremely disrespectful to go into basically what was a brand's funeral and flip tables... it takes a certain type of person to even fathom doing that.
 

Blackadder

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So you had to deal with some aggressive salesmen in America, I haven't seen this at any of the dealers in London and of course not in Japan. I don't think these American dealers are as represntative of their brands as Ken Calder is of Aero, would you agree?





What is CSF?



I was replying to this, did I misinterpret it?
Connor Sewing Factory aka One Piece of Rock
 

Aloysius

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Conner's Sewing Factory is a company in Japan that claimed to make 'the most accurate repro jeans' and claimed they commissioned their own fabrics for each model. This was of course not true, and they explained away the poor construction quality of their jeans as being 'more authentic to the vintage'.

They recently made legal threats against a jeans collector for putting together an eBook of photos of vintage Levi's and their historical information. CSF claimed that because they make repros of those models, they automatically have rights of any images of them (including of the original Levi's, not just CSF jeans) and that this collector was violating their legal rights. Absolutely absurd stuff.

You did misinterpret it. I was mentioning that skiving is one of the basic/fundamental leather skills; it is not a rare skill, as was being suggested earlier. Fundamental skills are not bad, nor are they inferior.
 

red devil

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Conner's Sewing Factory is a company in Japan that claimed to make 'the most accurate repro jeans' and claimed they commissioned their own fabrics for each model. This was of course not true, and they explained away the poor construction quality of their jeans as being 'more authentic to the vintage'.

They recently made legal threats against a jeans collector for putting together an eBook of photos of vintage Levi's and their historical information. CSF claimed that because they make repros of those models, they automatically have rights of any images of them (including of the original Levi's, not just CSF jeans) and that this collector was violating their legal rights. Absolutely absurd stuff.

You did misinterpret it. I was mentioning that skiving is one of the basic/fundamental leather skills; it is not a rare skill, as was being suggested earlier. Fundamental skills are not bad, nor are they inferior.

Ah, I knew them by name but am not very knowledgeable in denim, leather jackets keep me busy enough as it is :)
 

dudewuttheheck

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Conner's Sewing Factory is a company in Japan that claimed to make 'the most accurate repro jeans' and claimed they commissioned their own fabrics for each model. This was of course not true, and they explained away the poor construction quality of their jeans as being 'more authentic to the vintage'.

They recently made legal threats against a jeans collector for putting together an eBook of photos of vintage Levi's and their historical information. CSF claimed that because they make repros of those models, they automatically have rights of any images of them (including of the original Levi's, not just CSF jeans) and that this collector was violating their legal rights. Absolutely absurd stuff.

You did misinterpret it. I was mentioning that skiving is one of the basic/fundamental leather skills; it is not a rare skill, as was being suggested earlier. Fundamental skills are not bad, nor are they inferior.
The construction was part of the authenticity. The brand did and still does make some great repros. With that said, the claims they have made about the rights to the images are indeed quite harsh, hence why I no longer will buy anything from them and why I sold most of my jeans from them, keeping only one pair that is well worn in. Most of their 30s and 40s models are what they claim to be, but yes I am quite disappointed by the recent developments. This is not unusual for Japan, however. Look at the stuff Nintendo pulls compared to other gaming companies in regard to streaming and such.
 

Blackadder

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Conner's Sewing Factory is a company in Japan that claimed to make 'the most accurate repro jeans' and claimed they commissioned their own fabrics for each model. This was of course not true, and they explained away the poor construction quality of their jeans as being 'more authentic to the vintage'.

They recently made legal threats against a jeans collector for putting together an eBook of photos of vintage Levi's and their historical information. CSF claimed that because they make repros of those models, they automatically have rights of any images of them (including of the original Levi's, not just CSF jeans) and that this collector was violating their legal rights. Absolutely absurd stuff.

You did misinterpret it. I was mentioning that skiving is one of the basic/fundamental leather skills; it is not a rare skill, as was being suggested earlier. Fundamental skills are not bad, nor are they inferior.
I think you are misinformed about the CSF fiasco. The ebook writer used photos of some original Levi's from the web. Those original Levi's have been sold to CSF. What's more is the ebook writer admitted to using other photos from CSF's website and photos from BerBerjin without first obtaining their permission and I don't think there is any acknowledgment in the book. The ebook writer is amateur and the ebook is not for sale but even a student knows to acknowledge or ask for permission.
 

Blackadder

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The construction was part of the authenticity. The brand did and still does make some great repros. With that said, the claims they have made about the rights to the images are indeed quite harsh, hence why I no longer will buy anything from them and why I sold most of my jeans from them, keeping only one pair that is well worn in. Most of their 30s and 40s models are what they claim to be, but yes I am quite disappointed by the recent developments. This is not unusual for Japan, however. Look at the stuff Nintendo pulls compared to other gaming companies in regard to streaming and such.
The ebook writer and some others focused on the photos he took from the web before those jeans were sold to CSF. Those copyright arguably do not belong to CSF as the buyer but to the seller who took those photos. But then he also did admit to taking other photos directly from CSF and BerBerjin's website.
 
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dudewuttheheck

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The ebook writer and some others focused on the photos he took from the web before those jeans were sold to CSF but he did admit to taking other photos directly from CSF and BerBerjin's website.
Oh thats new. I did not know that part. That changes everything!!

CSF does have a strong following, bordering on a cult in Japan, but they do make some of the beat 40s repros you can get. Go over to denim forums and you'll see guys who really know their stuff saying that. I would not call them a scam at all. I was disappointed by the legal thing, but now with this new info, I'm re-thinking that.
 

dudewuttheheck

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I know the writer and I admire his dedication but that is sloppy. CSF is kind of rude and quite a few sympathize with the writer as the ebook is not for profit.
Yeah it was tough for me because Konaka-San has always been nice to me and treated me extremely well. Personally I like him quite a lot.
 

Mcu

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I cannot comprehend how not skiving could be harder than skiving. While you skive, you have to make sure that seams will be perfectly balanced where they meet so you create a coherent surface. This is certainly harder than not skiving and just stitching two thick leathers without any regard of how they bunch up. Plus skiving is also simply extra labor.

I think it is pretty obvious from the seams; it is not a tasteful choice.
 

zebedee

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It depends how much hammering and clamping is being done. Skiving can be done manually or via a machine, I think. The aesthetics of the manufacturer presumably determine whether or not skiving is used.

The Japan angle is interesting - there is a fascination with certain aspects of US culture and a market for acquiring Americana and then replicating it as perfectly as possible (if not improving on original designs) which seems to border on the fetishistic - because it is deliberately marketed that way for overseas markets. This is a trend that goes back quite a long way and is rooted in nihonjinron (where government elements and business elements decided on what 'new' - i.e. post-war - Japanese culture would look like). Living in Tokyo was very educational in this respect - essentially, Japan recognises that Westerners often see Japan as 'extreme' in some ways and has monetised this by selling the perception back to Westerners. None of that stops things being well made, shoddily made, etc., but the mystique attached to Japanese culture by foreigners is often quite funny to the Japanese themselves (and it certainly helps to sell things). It isn't as funny as foreigners squeezing themselves into Japanese clothing cuts, though.
 
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