What's you all's opinion of Bestaff?

[broiler]

You raise a fair point;
We live in a world where almost everything is cr*p made as cheaply as possible because that's what most customers care about- price.
There is a choice: cheap cr*p or over-priced cr*p that has good marketing and product placement, and it seems that a lot of people with money are happy to buy cheap cr*p at extortionate prices to pay for the branding and marketing.
All that matters is that if you spend a thousand dollars on a bellend jacket, people see it, recognize the brand, and understand you are wealthy and successful.
Used to be that people would see the quality of your clothes (wool, silk, leather), but no, this is an era where people don't even understand quality anymore- clothes have to have a brand logo that tells you.

(old man rant finished)

I hear you and agree with the gist of what you're saying. But I'd add that premium brands sometimes (not always) are higher quality than low-end goods. There's certainly more of a mark-up for luxury goods but that's true in every segment, whether it's clothing, automobiles or house paint.

I'd also agree that clothing quality has gone down over the past 25 years that I've been buying my own clothes. But people choose how to spend their disposable income, and for me it's all about value for money. I remember in the 80's and 90's you could find good no-name leather-soled dress shoes made in Italy or the U.S. for cheap, but most are made in China or India now and fall apart after the first year. I spent 15 years going through $60 dept store dress shoes every year until I got sick of the blisters and crap quality and splurged on a pair of Alden's. They're now almost ready for their second re-sole and if they make it through 4 (which I expect), will last me 20 years.

I'm a walking contradiction at work, as I'm rocking $24 trousers from JCPenny, $25 dress shirt from Jos A Bank, cheap undershirt and socks from Target, and Alden shell cordovan shoes. To me, those items represent optimal value-for-money. In appearance, they look professional but none stand out as exceptionally cheap or expensive. I'd add though, that if buying a jacket makes the difference in paying the bills this month or even this year, one shouldn't even be considering it in the first place.

But if a label makes someone happy, China made fake Belstaff, Burberry or whatever can also be had online on the cheap.

 

[Big J]

But if a label makes someone happy, China made fake Belstaff, Burberry or whatever can also be had online on the cheap.

But the real stuff is made in China.

(Still grumpy old man ranting, I think).

 

[wanz]

I think there were three phases of Belstaff...

Pre-Malenotti: made in England
Malenotti: made in Italy
Post-Malenotti: made wherever

The fans of each phase will only acknowledge that phase or one that came before it. I think what broiler and I have a tough time reconciling is that in the majority (all?) of the US, Belstaff is virtually unknown. I've lived in / worn Belstaff in LA, Chicago, and Dallas. It looks like broiler has Houston covered. That's four of the top five metropolitan areas in the US. I've never had a Malenotti Belstaff jacket recognized let alone associate with Beckham or Moss. It's usually mistaken for military surplus so paying extra for the brand is a bit foolish. Perhaps New York City is different.

I agree that dollar for dollar Barbour is the better buy (I own several of their jackets as well). But for foul weather gear, my S. Icon Trialmaster is my go to jacket. Of my many jackets, the Dark Knight blouson has received the second most compliments. Of course, the key is to never pay retail.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Hmm - I think the quality of clothes is about the same or a bit better than it was 30-40 years ago from memory. My stuff lasts pretty long. I buy cheap, well made brands like Wrangler jeans or Dikies. I never pay more than $80 for boots or $12 for a t-shirt and when chosen carefully I get years of service The only high end mall stuff I ever owned - RM Williams or Belstaff or Armani was nothing special. I had a Zegna blazer that cost $1000 and wore out in a year. I don't believe in "you get what you pay for."

 

[broiler]

I think there were three phases of Belstaff...

Pre-Malenotti: made in England
Malenotti: made in Italy
Post-Malenotti: made wherever

The fans of each phase will only acknowledge that phase or one that came before it. I think what broiler and I have a tough time reconciling is that in the majority (all?) of the US, Belstaff is virtually unknown. I've lived in / worn Belstaff in LA, Chicago, and Dallas. It looks like broiler has Houston covered. That's four of the top five metropolitan areas in the US. I've never had a Malenotti Belstaff jacket recognized let alone associate with Beckham or Moss. It's usually mistaken for military surplus so paying extra for the brand is a bit foolish. Perhaps New York City is different.

I agree that dollar for dollar Barbour is the better buy (I own several of their jackets as well). But for foul weather gear, my S. Icon Trialmaster is my go to jacket. Of my many jackets, the Dark Knight blouson has received the second most compliments. Of course, the key is to never pay retail.

Concur with everything here and can also attest that even in NYC, where I lived for 6 years, Belstaff is not recognizable by most people on the street. Pretty much only fashionistas, hipsters or bikers know what it is (granted, these types are more common in NYC than most cities).

In Houston, I've never seen another Belstaff or even many waxed jackets in general, since it's so hot most of the year. I guess waxed cotton was made for the British climate and in the U.S., is only ideal on the Northeast coast and the Northwest coast.

Hmm - I think the quality of clothes is about the same or a bit better than it was 30-40 years ago from memory. My stuff lasts pretty long. I buy cheap, well made brands like Wrangler jeans or Dikies. I never pay more than $80 for boots or $12 for a t-shirt and when chosen carefully I get years of service The only high end mall stuff I ever owned - RM Williams or Belstaff or Armani was nothing special. I had a Zegna blazer that cost $1000 and wore out in a year. I don't believe in "you get what you pay for."

Completely agree on staple items. To me, jeans look and feel the same whether they're $30 Wranglers or $400 Justin Bieber crotchlift specials. I can barely tell the difference between my clearance rack dept store khakis and $250 slacks from Ralph Lauren store or where-ever.

Dress shoes, I'm convinced beyond any doubt that you CAN get what you pay for. Expensive doesn't guarantee quality but low prices do guarantee crap quality. Solid brands like Alden, Allen Edmonds (going more mass market now though) or Crockett & Jones are a great pair of shoes that will last 20 years.

In general, I think luxury mall brands are a recipe for overpaying, but I've never seen Belstaff in a mall.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I don't wear dress shoes so I'll take your word for it. I should have said Barbour not Belstaff - my mall sells Barbour and it's very unremarkable.

 

[broiler]

I don't wear dress shoes so I'll take your word for it. I should have said Barbour not Belstaff - my mall sells Barbour and it's very unremarkable.

100% agree. I've seen Barbour in malls in the U.S. and it feels thin, oily and cheap. I've even ordered a Barbour from the UK and chose to eat shipping both ways because it felt cheap and for instance had a plastic neck buckle. I have heard that some Barbour is still good quality however.

Having lived in the UK for 2 years, I know that both Barbour and Belstaff have huge brand recognition there, and there are some status conscious snobs flaunting the logo (that's probably where the sentiment on this board comes from). In the past 5 or 10 years though, Belstaff has tried to use that to position itself even more upmarket as a luxury brand, and jacked up retail prices accordingly. Their quality however, is still solid.

Barbour went another direction and tried to go mass market, selling in malls, etc., with quality going down in some jackets (this is what I meant in my previous post about clothing quality going down).

This is just business and everyone does it these days. For instance in luxury cars, BMW launched their entry level 300 series years ago to trade on their luxury reputation and capture some of the mass market which has lower margins but higher sales. Jaguar did it with their entry level car (when they were owned by Ford), etc.

 

[Edward]

Belstaff are too much of a fashion/celebrity brand..try a look at Matchless

Same people as used to own Belstaff now doing a line of their own. Made in Italy, I believe. Too fashion-led for me, also they all look desperately seventies to my eye, not up to what Belstaff's designs were. Nice to see the old British-bike name Matchless out there again, but I'm not impressed by the looks (or the price!).

I guess the question is whether the standard Belstaff waxed motorcycle jacket is twice as good quality as the Barbour international seeing as it's twice the price.

Yeah. I remember making a similar decision about five years ago..... to the effect that the standard Belstaff Trailmaster wasn'tg worth GBP100 more than the standard Barbour International. I bought the Barbour, needless to say.

But the real stuff is made in China.

(Still grumpy old man ranting, I think).

That's why there are so many fakes out there that are just as good as the original. It's not unknown for a factory in China to take in an order from a big name, double up on everything, and sell the surplus out the backdoor. Of course, if they get caught out, it's not hard to turn the business entirely over to the fakes.

Hmm - I think the quality of clothes is about the same or a bit better than it was 30-40 years ago from memory. My stuff lasts pretty long. I buy cheap, well made brands like Wrangler jeans or Dikies. I never pay more than $80 for boots or $12 for a t-shirt and when chosen carefully I get years of service The only high end mall stuff I ever owned - RM Williams or Belstaff or Armani was nothing special. I had a Zegna blazer that cost $1000 and wore out in a year. I don't believe in "you get what you pay for."

The 'designer label' phenomenon has been around al ong time, but it only seems to have goten more extreme in recet years. I fin quality varies. As a rule of thumb, more expensive stuff often is better..... but not always as much better as the price difference suggests. This is where the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard. Years ago, I wanted a Les Paul. I could have saved and bought a Gibson.... instead I bought the Epiphone - their cheaper alternative line. Thing is, the Gibson was - if I'm being kind - twice the guitar. It was also seven times the price....

100% agree. I've seen Barbour in malls in the U.S. and it feels thin, oily and cheap. I've even ordered a Barbour from the UK and chose to eat shipping both ways because it felt cheap and for instance had a plastic neck buckle. I have heard that some Barbour is still good quality however.

I think it must depend what models you go for. the buckles on my International are plastic coating over metal. I'd rather brass, but to be fair these have never given out.

Having lived in the UK for 2 years, I know that both Barbour and Belstaff have huge brand recognition there, and there are some status conscious snobs flaunting the logo (that's probably where the sentiment on this board comes from). In the past 5 or 10 years though, Belstaff has tried to use that to position itself even more upmarket as a luxury brand, and jacked up retail prices accordingly. Their quality however, is still solid.

Barbour went another direction and tried to go mass market, selling in malls, etc., with quality going down in some jackets (this is what I meant in my previous post about clothing quality going down).

Both names are very well known here. They've been around almost as long as each other - though from memory I believe Barbour were the firstg to produce a waxed cotton motorcycle jacket. Belstaff have indeed chased hard at the high fashion crowd, with most of their line being unbuyable now. The last time I looked, a waxed cotton Belstaff was pushing GBP500 for a waxed cotton jacket, with some hunting for a better price. Barbour are around half that for the equivalent model. I've found no drop in quality in either. I'd still buy a Belstaff, in the unlikely event that I found one at the right price. Barbour have, in recent years, vastly extended their "International" brand to include all kinds of cheap nylon versions and all sorts, playing to the fashion crowd. If you've got the time to pick out a nice one, you can still do well with them. As long as you're handy with a stitch-unpicker..... I didn't mind the garish logo on mine so much when I bought it at first, but it's really started to grate. I got a great deal on one on eBay that somebody bought, realised was too small, and sold on without so much as taking it out of the original bag. Mine is of course black - the only colour in which the slimmer 'Trials' model International was available. I'd love a green one that I could fit with the Winter liner, but that seems unlikely at the minute. The Steve MacQueen one is tempting now they've removed the embrodiered flag from the outside. Not sure I could live with the tacky flag-liner, but at least it's not seen when worn... Barbour have retained the angled chest pocket, which is a feature I like ; Belstaff dropped it years ago. Thier country stuff has also suffered the scourge of being a bit trendy, but it has retained quality without the price being pushed up astronomically.

There are lots of other alternatives for anyone looking a good, sevcieable waxed-cotton jacket at a budget price, such as Speedwear's range, which reviews extremely well across all the motorcycle websites:

http://www.speedwear.co.uk/waxed-co...ts-c-12.html?sesid=6g0us9u6psvpsqnsuu5unoqn47

 

[broiler]

Both names are very well known here. They've been around almost as long as each other - though from memory I believe Barbour were the firstg to produce a waxed cotton motorcycle jacket. Belstaff have indeed chased hard at the high fashion crowd, with most of their line being unbuyable now. The last time I looked, a waxed cotton Belstaff was pushing GBP500 for a waxed cotton jacket, with some hunting for a better price. Barbour are around half that for the equivalent model. I've found no drop in quality in either. I'd still buy a Belstaff, in the unlikely event that I found one at the right price. Barbour have, in recent years, vastly extended their "International" brand to include all kinds of cheap nylon versions and all sorts, playing to the fashion crowd. If you've got the time to pick out a nice one, you can still do well with them. As long as you're handy with a stitch-unpicker..... I didn't mind the garish logo on mine so much when I bought it at first, but it's really started to grate. I got a great deal on one on eBay that somebody bought, realised was too small, and sold on without so much as taking it out of the original bag. Mine is of course black - the only colour in which the slimmer 'Trials' model International was available. I'd love a green one that I could fit with the Winter liner, but that seems unlikely at the minute. The Steve MacQueen one is tempting now they've removed the embrodiered flag from the outside. Not sure I could live with the tacky flag-liner, but at least it's not seen when worn... Barbour have retained the angled chest pocket, which is a feature I like ; Belstaff dropped it years ago. Thier country stuff has also suffered the scourge of being a bit trendy, but it has retained quality without the price being pushed up astronomically.

There are lots of other alternatives for anyone looking a good, sevcieable waxed-cotton jacket at a budget price, such as Speedwear's range, which reviews extremely well across all the motorcycle websites:

http://www.speedwear.co.uk/waxed-co...ts-c-12.html?sesid=6g0us9u6psvpsqnsuu5unoqn47

Great stuff - on straight chest pockets though, you're thinking of the Belstaff Roadmaster which I think has been around since the 80's as the streetwear version of the Trialmaster. The Malenotti Trialmaster and its current incarnation, the Tourist Trophy from the Belstaff Motorcyle line, has always had an angled chest pocket.

Slapping myself for not being current on the Speedwear stuff. I had seen their listings, but didn't see anything in beige. Their Pulford is EXACTLY what I had been looking for:



As it is, I paid almost 100 quid more for my beige Roadmaster but am still happy with it and was OK paying up only because I had previously owned the same jacket and given my Barbour experience, didn't want to gamble again on an unfamiliar jacket. I also figured I could get a better eBay price during the summer when there's less demand for a winter jacket, which I did.

 

[wanz]

Of course if you had gone with a Barbour International, you would have the option of buying a matching dog jacket. I think that puts Barbour firmly in the mass marketing lead...

http://www.barbour.com/us/all-collections/womens/barbour-international/tourer/b-intl-dog-coat/p/UAC0084BK91?breadcrumbs=

 

[broiler]

Of course if you had gone with a Barbour International, you would have the option of buying a matching dog jacket. I think that puts Barbour firmly in the mass marketing lead...

http://www.barbour.com/us/all-collections/womens/barbour-international/tourer/b-intl-dog-coat/p/UAC0084BK91?breadcrumbs=

That is excellent! If only it came in beige...

 

[Big J]

So this is 'British tradition' and 'heritage' by Royal Appointment now, is it?



I wish I could just LOLZ, but I actually feel insulted that they expect me to buy into their marketing cr*p for such....cr*p products.

 

[Edward]

Great stuff - on straight chest pockets though, you're thinking of the Belstaff Roadmaster which I think has been around since the 80's as the streetwear version of the Trialmaster. The Malenotti Trialmaster and its current incarnation, the Tourist Trophy from the Belstaff Motorcyle line, has always had an angled chest pocket.

Ah! I mised that. The curse of aso many almost but not quite identical models, I think!

Slapping myself for not being current on the Speedwear stuff. I had seen their listings, but didn't see anything in beige. Their Pulford is EXACTLY what I had been looking for:

View attachment 34439

Yeah, that's one I have my eye on. I've also long been looking at the brown Continental, though the ones at £60 odds are hella tempting. Wish they'd do a dark green one. If I got the Belstaff at the right price, I might jump on it for that colour, as nobody else seems to do the belted mc style in green any more. The 'heavy duty' black one also looks very nice. Big bonus of the Continental models for nyone who rides is the option of getting them with the armouring.... and the pile liner is included in the price.

As it is, I paid almost 100 quid more for my beige Roadmaster but am still happy with it and was OK paying up only because I had previously owned the same jacket and given my Barbour experience, didn't want to gamble again on an unfamiliar jacket. I also figured I could get a better eBay price during the summer when there's less demand for a winter jacket, which I did.

Good price for the Belstaff all the same - best new price I can find online is about double that. Plus it will have a better resale value if you want to move it on in the future, given the brand.

Of course if you had gone with a Barbour International, you would have the option of buying a matching dog jacket. I think that puts Barbour firmly in the mass marketing lead...

http://www.barbour.com/us/all-collections/womens/barbour-international/tourer/b-intl-dog-coat/p/UAC0084BK91?breadcrumbs=

I passed on that. I have cats. Have you ever seen what cats do to people who try to make them wear clothes?

So this is 'British tradition' and 'heritage' by Royal Appointment now, is it?

Over here we call it "free market capitalism".... and nobody other than rich tourists gives a damn about royal warrants.

 

[broiler]

Yeah, that's one I have my eye on. I've also long been looking at the brown Continental, though the ones at £60 odds are hella tempting. Wish they'd do a dark green one. If I got the Belstaff at the right price, I might jump on it for that colour, as nobody else seems to do the belted mc style in green any more. The 'heavy duty' black one also looks very nice. Big bonus of the Continental models for nyone who rides is the option of getting them with the armouring.... and the pile liner is included in the price.



Good price for the Belstaff all the same - best new price I can find online is about double that. Plus it will have a better resale value if you want to move it on in the future, given the brand.

If you're interested in the Belstaffs, I've seen more than a few dark green roadmasters and trialmasters on eBay, both new and used. The current line has a color called "faded olive" that is actually dark green.

The Stuarts of London website also has a few dark green Belstaffs, and you can periodically find 40% discount codes online. That's actually where I ordered the Barbour I tried, and I was very happy with their communication and return policy, if not the jacket itself. Since you live there, I guess you could just check them out in person.

If you're considering a tan one, here's the one I would have bought if the seller of my Roadmaster hadn't accepted my best offer:

http://www.ebay.es/itm/Chaqueta-Mot...lla-Size-XL-/151387873202?hash=item233f6b9fb2

It's a light brown Malenotti Tourist Trophy for what I consider to be a great price. Listed in Spain from a brick and mortar retailer and they have it in S and XL. This is the motorcycle version, includes zip out liner and armor, and gets great reviews from every site I've seen it discussed. Looks like the vendor also has TT's in other colors and sizes, as well as some Belstaff blousons.

Video review here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9DAo6gONxg

On eBay, for some reason, some listings didn't show up on my U.S. based account. If you actually go to the eBay Spain and eBay Germany sites and search there, there's a lot of Belstaff for decent prices (less than U.S. listings anyway). There's also some fakes, but there are some great threads on Filmjackets.com about how to spot fakes from the online photos.