13eme DBLE

[the hairy bloke]

For those in the know that means The "Allied" unit of the French Foriegn Legion in WWII.

I am hoping to begin re-enacting the unit, and I am fairly clear on the kit, and the history of the unit, but I am still a bit unsure on a few facts.

So perhaps you chaps and Ladies could assist.

Where there any British nationals in 13eme DBLE (13th Demi-Brigade of the French Foriegn Legion)? If so did they stay in it, or transfer out?

And what about Germans in the Legion?

All the Best

Dan

 

[Trotsky]

I don't have an answer to your question, but I am curious to know which kit you plan on using? When I do DBLE I use British KD with a '50s kepi with a white cover. I did this a few years back, before the reproduction of Mle 1935 leather equipment; I just used P37 kit for that.

I DO use a MAS 36 rifle though.

 

[the hairy bloke]

Yo! Leon

I was intending to use the British kit, but the group we mob around with do 30 Commando (RN) for D-Day so I may well go for the post North-African US uniforms.

But I might not.


I am down in the West Country, in the UK. Where are you?

All the best

 

[Chasseur]

Dan,

I might be telling you what you already know but do you have a copy of Doug Porch's book "The French Foreign Legion" or the Osprey book on the Free French in WWII?

Porch's is probably the best single volume on the legion and at various times in the book he has some ethnic breakdowns of what nationalities were in it. The details in the Free French book were pretty good from what I remember, but my interests were more for the colonial/marine troops.

 

[the hairy bloke]

Dear Leon

It has occured to me that we might have met.

Did you do an event at the Maldon Museum of Power some years ago, when there was an English Civil War group there? And did you have a jeep?

 

[Renault]

Dan,

PM me later! Can't talk now as I'm at work. Been doing 13eme DBLE for 7 years.......

Renault

 

[Renault]

Okay, I'm home. And thanks to my trusty floor heater, I got my ancient computer to come on.

Quick info on the 13eme from what I, and others, have gleaned in the past 14 years.

Apparently the vast majority of the 13eme were Spanish expats trying to get away from Franco. But there were Germans, French :eeek: (yes even French!), Italians, Russians, and Americans in the war-time 13eme. As for Brits, who knows?????? They could have given any nationality when joining up.... I did hear once of a Brit with a strong Swedish accent.....

When the 13eme was formed and shipped out to Narvik, Norway in the Spring of '40, it has been generally accepted that they did not have just a whole lot of the mle 1935 gear. But they did appear to have a hodge-podge of the mle35 and earlier uniforms. They were fitted out of the stores in Algeria with the 30's modified WWI leather gear like other legion and coloniale units. They had both MAS 36's and Berthier carbines like the fortress troops were issued. (Note here. If youcare to know. The abundance of MAS 36's you see here in the states are arsenal modified1950's guns, and differ from the true WWII vintage guns).

You see lots of mixed French and Brit gear in North Africa (Bir Hakiem, etc). Mish mash of uniforms, kepis, khaki "Fortress" berets, arms, etc. Lots of Brit khaki drill. Remembering they were completely re-supplied with all manner of French gear from stores recently captured from Vichy forces in the Levant. This new gear (ammo, and such) was almost totally exhausted in North Africa.

The Anfa accord at Casablanca of '43 found a new ally to bankroll the Free French. The USA. BUT,,,,, there was a descrepancy here. The lion's share of new USGI stuff went to the "new" Free French. The former Vichy forces mainly the North African units. The was basically to curry favor with all of the French high command. The old 1er Free French Brigade (where te 13eme was located) were treated like outcast red-headed step-children. The Brits wanted all their gear back and the Americans treated them like outlaws. But in the long run, the did end up with American gear. Their re-training with the gear and vehicles was complete in April of 44 and they shipped to Italy dressed in USGI "Suntans" armed with US M1917 Rifles, BAR's, and Thompsons. Not many kepis seen after this point. Khaki berets, Brit tin hats, Adrians, and USGI M-1's for helmets.

During Operation Dragoon , Invasion of Southern France, we see the 13eme in USGI mustard wools, khaki berets and all USGI web gear. Same arms as mentioned before. Many good pics of the 13eme in a victory parade in Dijon at this time.

Winter into Alsace, (before the 13eme was termed unfit for combat duty because of extreme losses) you see all the uniforms mention in Dragoon above and all manner of coats for warmth! Lot's of USGI "Class A" blouses being worn in combat as well as USGI trenchcoats and mackinaws (when they could get them!

There are always the occassional anomalie. Being the Legion was always a strict practicioner of "Systeme D" there is the opportunity for something beyond the norm to appear. The Legion museum at Aubagne does mention that the 13eme did manage to relieve the USAAF of several cases of Ray-Ban sunglasses and a few A-2 flight jackets. BUT such items are usually the exception and not always the rule for a good impression.

The above is simply a generalization for this thread. This is what our research has uncovered. This is not to say there isn't better intel out there. This is what we've shaped out unit around. A typical potrayal of a typical Legionnaire.. We may stick a bit more "tribal" stuff in a public event (Kepi here, Adrian helmet there) so we are recognized as Free French.

Generally when we hit the field here, it is hot. We try to fit the scenario. Usually it is somewhere in Op Dragoon. So if I were t fall outit would be with USGI uniforms (mustards) and webgear , M1917 Rifle, and the old Khaki beret. You really can't go wrong with that kit.

Now, I need to find the pics of my youngest son's "Goumier" impression........

Maybe this will help all a little....

Renault

 

[Wally_Hood]

Dan,

I might be telling you what you already know but do you have a copy of Doug Porch's book "The French Foreign Legion" or the Osprey book on the Free French in WWII?

Porch's is probably the best single volume on the legion and at various times in the book he has some ethnic breakdowns of what nationalities were in it. The details in the Free French book were pretty good from what I remember, but my interests were more for the colonial/marine troops.

Porch's book is outstanding, almost too much data for those who aren't deeply into the Legion. But he has a gift for combing historical sweep with an eye for detail.

 

[Chasseur]

Porch's book is outstanding, almost too much data for those who aren't deeply into the Legion. But he has a gift for combing historical sweep with an eye for detail.

Its my favorite of all his books and I've read almost all of them. Its actually in many ways its a better social history of the legion than a military history.

A little off topic, but one problem with Porch in the past 20 years or so is that he does not spend that much time in the archives, and often he recycles secondary source material from older sources (in particular sometimes rather dodgy memoires...) that have been overtaken by new sources or findings. His book on the French Intelligence Services (while its a good "first cut" on the subject) is a classic example of this. However, he did a much more detailed research for his Legion book than some of his other books and it shows when you read it. Though I wish he covered the post-colonial period...

 

[Renault]

I also enjoyed the research and presentation Porch did in his other book, "The Path to Victory". He is an exceptional historian.

Renault

 

[Chasseur]

I also enjoyed the research and presentation Porch did in his other book, "The Path to Victory". He is an exceptional historian.

Renault

Actually I really enjoyed that one too. Its another of his excellent works. March to the Marne is also pretty good, but has been somewhat overtaken by more recent works.

 

[Wally_Hood]

Its my favorite of all his books and I've read almost all of them. Its actually in many ways its a better social history of the legion than a military history.

A little off topic, but one problem with Porch in the past 20 years or so is that he does not spend that much time in the archives, and often he recycles secondary source material from older sources (in particular sometimes rather dodgy memoires...) that have been overtaken by new sources or findings. His book on the French Intelligence Services (while its a good "first cut" on the subject) is a classic example of this. However, he did a much more detailed research for his Legion book than some of his other books and it shows when you read it. Though I wish he covered the post-colonial period...

If you have the time, compare Porch's account of the Legion in the Algerian revolt with the film The Battle of Algiers. Both seem to be tracking each other.

 

[Chasseur]

Sorry I've shifted us off topic, but I agree with you and his coverage of the Algerian War in the book, it (like the rest of the book) is quite good.

I do not mean for my earlier post to come off that snarky, so perhaps I should give some background. I did a graduate history degree in France that focused on the French wars of de-colonization, and I teach a course on French foreign and defence policy. So much of what Porch writes on I deal with professionally. For many people working in the same field as Porch, he does have a reputation of not spending much time in the archives and also being more of a popular than analytical historian (fair or not the criticism is often made). So my comment was more about some of his more popular works like the book I mentioned on Intelligence Services, or his histories of French colonization of Morocco and the Sahara. Personally, I like Porch and find his books highly readable, but sometimes he can have source limitations.

 

[Renault]

Chasseur,

This just in from the rumor mill!!!!!

In keeping with the theme of the thread (And yesterday being the Birthday of the Legion! March 9, 1831) Rumor has it that there is in the works a 60th Anniversary reenactment of one of the hill engagements at Dien Bien Phu. Being that III/13eme DBLE was just about wiped out to a man at "Beatrice" (that anniversary is next week!!! 12/13 March 1954) ,the location for this event is closer in appearance to one of the "Elaines".

Renault

 

[Stearmen]

Beercat Pilots

Dien Bien Phu in 1954 was where the first American names on the Vietnam memorial came from. There were 400 US Airforce ground crew supporting the aircraft we gave to France, including the Grumman Beercats, [Bearcat, the french had trouble with the A.] Plus Civil Air Transport (CAT), pilots under General Claire Lee Chennault and some Air Force pilots flying C-119 Boxcars. James 'Earthquake McGoon' McGovern, and Wallace “Wally” Buford were shot down and killed May 6, 1954.

 

[Renault]

Pierre Schoendoerfer (survivor of DBP) and famous cinematographer, with the assistance of the Vietnamese govt., finished a pretty epic piece on DBP back several years ago. It has never been released in the states, but there are DVD copies available now.

Good background and some exceptional artillery sequences. And good overview of all who participated in French forces in SE asia.. To the typical American, the only military units in French Indochina during this times was the Legion. And naturally, they were ALL former German SS...... When you go into all the coloniales they stand in disbelief! Both Benard Fall and Martin Windrow's books on the subject are still the best references. I've always found it a bit ironoc that Frank Capa was killed in late '54 in Tonkin while with a Fusilier Marin company down in the Golden Triangle. And Bernard Fall was killed with a US Marine company a bit later. As I recollect, the both stepped on mines.

Excellent flick, however word I've received from copains in France is that it was not well received by the vets there. As the think Schoendorfer a sell-out to the Viet Minh for cooperating with them during production. Just what I heard, no interjection of anything political.

There are some scenes on Youtube! Especially the Colonial artillery firing "line of sight" with HE from 105's on human wave assaults......... Pretty gut-wrenching! Especially when the the battery commander shouts the order, "Archers! Man your bows!!!!"...

Renault