ANJ-3...LooKs NiCE...StiLL WRoNG?

[johnnyjohnny]

to begin, i got a sporty's horse a-2 made a few years ago (post ww2 style)with full military specs...it is perhaps my favorite of all jackets...superb fit and construction...

i wanted a true spec anj-3 for my collection...not the uswings pseudo version (no windflap!), and other stuff out there that has one thing wrong or another vis a vis u.s. ww2 specs...

roaming the sporty's website, and aware of how much i love their a-2 (not the current one, which looks nice but is current issue style with side pockets and no throat hook)...so, looking at their anj-3, and verifying with them that the back is just like the milspec g-1 (one piece top with back belt strip at waist), i ordered...

despite some shipping problems because sporty's said they'd ship it usps and ended up going ups, i got it in good time...tried it on and was surprised at the beauty of it, the cut, the quality...everything...it does have collar snaps like an a-2, but i really don't at all mind that...everything else was just out of the history boox...

except, when i took it off i noticed the tag: "made in pakistan"

whilst pakistan is on the verge of NoT being a u.s. ally in the current geo-political situation, that was not what gave me pause...it was more in the vain of seeing those great old avirex jackets on ebay that you want to buy, and then seeing the "made in korea" tag...definitely a u.s. ally...but still...it goes down hard

part of the mystique and beauty of these jackets is that they were and are a totally u.s. creation...of this country and culture...perhaps my affinity for the true nature of these jackets leads me to buy only milspec versions

and any of the milspec versions of the past, and current manufacturers, are u.s. made and comply with the military spec contracts...it's just all part of it

the anj-3 is a different bird, having never officially been procured for u.s. personnel except for a limited number of test run pieces...still, a jacket having a u.s. military designation, and sold as such, even if a replica piece, should be made in the u.s....not mandated by law or such...however, having something this much part of u.s. history, and a creation of history, NOT made in the u.s. is just wrong, in my perhaps parochial opinion....like chinese made u.s. flags on your lawn on the Fourth of July

hence, as such, i informed sporty's that i thought the ad for the jacket online and in their catalog gave an improper implication that this piece is u.s. made, stating that it is an anj-3...which in my understanding is a u.s. military designation jacket, and as such, is properly made and named that designation only if made in the u.s...

so back it goes...

this is certainly not jingoistic, or nationalism...i'm left on the spectrum of politix, however, i just think it's not right...as nice as the jacket admittedly does look, and as proper as it's construction (ironically, when compared to say the uswings u.s.-made version without the necessary windflap, which i've sadly purchased)...i still can't wear it

johnnyjohnny

note: to be fair, sporty's does have the word "imported" on the ad when you click for more information, but the initial purchase point on the site does not say this, and i clicked to buy directly from that non-qualified link...properly, if not made by a u.s. maker i think these should say "anj-3 style"

 

[Hawk_Eye]

So am I to understand that, according to this policy of yours, you wouldnt wear any of the extremely fine jackets made by Eastman or Aero, et al simply because they were not made in the USA? If so, your just unnessessarily limiting your pool of potential jackets. Also, any ANJ-3 (or A-2, or B-3, etc) made after its military contract ended would have to be an "ANJ-3, A-2, B-3 style" whether it was made in the USA or not. My advice, if its a good looking jacket that fits, wear it. If you strictly adhere to this policy, bascally every single repro out there will be off limits to you.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

i'm WaCKyyyyyyy

you make an excellent point hawkeye...

of course i'm being obsessive compulsive...however, i have really limited myself to the u.s. manufacturers of a2s and g-1s...i've stayed away from the high price replicas and gotten the spiewak and sons, coopers, avirex milspec, the excelled leather current contract g-1...

but you do make my concerns sound a bit absurd...not the first time someone's done that to me...

johnnyjohnny

 

[Edward]

I think the real irony is that so many of the very best of the repro US jackets are made in Japan. Personally, I'm on the side of 'if it's a great quality and accurate design jacket, I'll wear it,' but of course being Irish there isn't the inbuilt pride in owning something "homemade" in terms of a US WW2 style jacket that I understand there is for US folks.

In terms of accurate labelling, I do wish that companies would avoid trying to "hide" where their products are made. To be fair, though, there are so many irrational prejudices around (in the guitar world, which I've been following for a long time, you wouldn't believe how many people seem to genuinely believe that a US made guitar must be superior to one made anywhere else by dint of simple geography alone ) that I can understand why a company might be put off being too open about producing a jacket in, say, Korea when that might damage sales due to the market's misperceptions. It particularly amuses and confounds me when folks are so strict about where they will buy mechanical products from, bearing in mind that "Made in USA" is so often more accurately "Assembled in USA from the same components as they use in Korea." [huh]

Still, wouldn't it be a dull world if we all preferred the same thing? And given the high price of most good flying jacket repros, it seems to me that you'd want to be totally convinced it was the right jacket for you if you're spending that sort of coin. At the end of the day, we could all pick holes in each other's logic (or lack thereof) in relation to our choice of jackets and so on, but when our very attraction to these sorts of jackets in the first place is an emotional, rather than rational, choice, it's hardly surprising that some of our decisions will be "irrational" looked on objectively.

 

[tonypaj]

At the end of the day, we could all pick holes in each other's logic (or lack thereof) in relation to our choice of jackets and so on, but when our very attraction to these sorts of jackets in the first place is an emotional, rather than rational, choice, it's hardly surprising that some of our decisions will be "irrational" looked on objectively.

Interesting the part of the emotional choice. When I think of it, I seem to do it with pretty much everything, watches have to be Swiss, pens Swiss/American, overcoats British/Australian, leather jackets British, jeans/khakis American, and on and on all the way to t-shirts... The only thing French (my present host country) I like is eye glass frames, and well, wine and food, but that's a whole different topic... The only thing from my own country (Finland) would be a cell phone and most definitely not food...

Sorry about fftopic:

 

[ethanedwards]

Hard to imagine a WW2 pilot refusing to fly his aeroplane because the Rolls Royce Merlin(s) had been made under license in the US!?!?!?

 

[johnnyjohnny]

naTionaL pride is no sin...but can be oBsessionaL

i love the comments brought forth by my personal obsession and prejuidice against the sporty's pakistanian-made anj-3

the interesting thing is that everyone is right, because we like these things because they appeal to our personal sensibilities for whatever reason...

growing up i had an obsession with brit sports cars...these were the british leyland years, so all of them pretty much stunk mechanically (spitfire, mgb) except for the mg midget, which had not been screwed up by british leyland and was still built in the original midget factory...that thing was bullet proof, figuratively, and was built by the original mg workers in the original factory, where the mg "B"s and triumpsh were moved over to the leyland plants...i still recall my '78 spitfire paint job ruined as the battery chemically boiled over and spilled over the fender...after having the car for one month

still, the style of those cars, the british sports car, appealed...even if their glory days were over going into the mid-seventies

the pakistanian sporty's anj-3 went back after i made my first entry on this obsessional jacket behaviour...but as i was putting it in the box, i noticed the collar was about 1/2" thinner all the way around then the style and official patterns called for...though the jacket was built beautifully...in the end i believe there is something in cultural aesthetics that allows 'americans' to know best how to build something that is, essentially, American...

not to say that a replicator company that bases it's business and raison d'etre on remanufacturing classix wouldn't be able to get things right...but the anj-3 farmed out to the pakistanis was not that case...i talked to the owner of another company that was putting out a great looking (in ads anyway) luftwaffe jacket, made in pakistan...cutting production cost was the reason he went to pakistan, and i've no doubt it's the same with the sporty's line, that used to be made in the u.s. of a.

on the other end of this thing, i had wanted a new g-1 jacket, and had looked at all of the companies making them...in the end i went with the least expensive...it was the one made in a u.s., union, factory and actually supplied to the navy for purchase by their personnel, contract numbers and all...

when it arrived it was NOT the most expensive top drawer leather one might get with an eastman, or lost world's, replicant...but it was the one contracted to the u.s. govt...like perhaps the a-2s that our guys got in ww2...economical, but american, and looking like it...needless to say, it has a look and feel that is just right, just real, and i love it

maybe it's what that happens with certain things that catch fire, not because they're the most expensive around, but because they are somehow right...the original vw...the original inexpensive inline six '64 mustang...

or an original a-2 or g-1 jacket contracted for our guys by the u.s. govt, even though it wasn't top drawer, or with a price tag to match

and hence, when some of these companies, like avirex at one time did, and sadly now sporty's (their a-2 is imported too) take what is American with a capital "A", and farm it out overseas to cut production costs, don't be surprised if something just doesn't look right on it...it would be like chevy deciding to make the mustang...something, somehow, just isn't going to be the way it should

i love things Chinese, as well as things of Pakistan, however, on the Fourth of July i won't be putting up any Chinese made u.s. flags...

and i couldn't wear that pakistanian anj-3

just me

johnnyjohnny

 

[Raymundo]

Johnnyjohnny,

Japanese do not apologize for buying only Japanese made repos of US military jackects. Europeans do not apologize for buying Eastman and Aero repos of US military jackets. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery for these countries. Many of the original US military flight jackets sold on Ebay are purchased by Asian and European buyers. Why would you be criticised for wanting to wear a US made military style repo? Why would you even care? US miliary jacket styles are the most popular in the world. Wearing ones made in a foreign country just does not have the same aura and feeling no matter how well they are made. Save your money and buy a Goodwear jacket some day from John Chapman. His jackets are closest to the originals and are made in the USA.

Ray

 

[johnnyjohnny]

eXactiTude

thanks for understanding...and indeed, goodwear look to me to have the proper esprit de corps of a u.s. jacket...

however, at first i didn't want to bite the bullet of a truly expensive jacket, so i went down the road of getting post war milspec a-2s and g-1s...i've loved doing this rather than going for the replicas because i'm getting the real deals...

and i've learned the hard way about the vagaries of sizing (different brands, different fits, same size in different brands can actually be different sizes)...

i've found some winners, often surprisingly...a sporty's (old school, not current) horsehide that has a fit that can't be beat, totally my favorite...

the postwar a-2s like schott (the real milspec ones), spiewak and sons, even cooper, were all fascinating, but fit oddly, the schotts being about 24 inches long from collar seam to end...the cooper in my size of 44L being too tight, and looking bizarre with it's paper-thin leather and disco-sized collar...the spiewak looking quite a bit like a few ww2 spiewak samples i've seen on the net, but still not fitting to my best liking...

as for replicas, as nouveau as this may sound, i adorrre the cockpitusa leather horse flying tiger jacket i got last year...the 46 regular (not made in longs) fits beautifully and more like a 44, and the clyman's did a remarkable job of styling after the most stylish of the ww2's...i also got a lesson in customer service with remarkable replacing of the jacket when the first one i got had some cracks around the needle holes on a few of the stitches...the original reseller had given me a 20percent discount on the jacket for the imperfections, but then when i wrote cockpitusa, jackie clyman wrote back to send it in...they didn't ask for the discount back, and just sent me a new one with a slightly different leather type, a jacket that is amazing...but it ain't cheap now, going for over $500 and worth it, i got it last year at $435 (less after the twenty percent back)...so very unlike my experience with uswings with their cuff material that seems to disintegrate before your eyes, and no one there responding to emails about it... ironically, uswings also sells the cockpitusa jackets

anyway, what i'm saying is that i prefer the actual milspec issues, even if post war...

however, when looking for a ww2 luftwaffe jacket i had to go for a replica...but there too, i opted not for a replica, but the closest thing in a modern jacket that was similar to the original luftwaffe hartmann style...and aero's highwayman comes 90percent close with the right chosen options, so i did lay down seven bills for that...definitely worth it from what i have read here

as for goodwear, i have to admit that if i were to go for as authentic a piece of replicated u.s. ww2 wear as i could, i'd go there...but i better start spending my money on something other than jackets for awhile...tho, that aero will be coming in a few months and i'll certainly post about that...

for now tho, it will be au Wiedersehen, as i wait on the aero 'luftwaffe'

johnnyjohnny

 

[Raymundo]

It sounds like if you added up the cost of the jackets you have purchased so far that you could have bought at least one custom made Goodwear and I guarantee that you would have been much more satisfied and happy. To each his own.

Ray

 

[bigshoe]

Johnny
As a maker of repro shoes I admire your spirit and wish more people had it.:eusa_clap However as a bussines man I can empathize with taking production overseas. It is getting harder by the day do carry on here. As for myself I will be the last man standing or go down trying.
Tom

 

[kampkatz]

Johnny's philosophy is fascinating. Not all of us are such deep thinkers. As for shoes made in the USA, I wish your the best. I prefer buying "locally made" items myself. It just gets more difficult to find home grown items, as more manufacturing moves overseas.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

i LoVe you MaNNN!

thanks to the last 3 commentors for understanding where i am coming from on the anj-3...i can't say everyone should have my opinion, all i can say is that "I" have it, and it's deep felt

sporty's sent me a generic product evaluation email after my purchase (even though i subsequently returned the pakistanian anj-3), and i must say i let them have it for selling something sO clearly American (meaning u.s.) that the actual name of it comes from a u.s. military spec designation, and not have it be, well, American

really, a u.s. pilot supply company to be selling items under the actual name used by the u.s. military in wartime for these items, and have them be foreign made (ironically to be made by an 'ally' country that is so divided in it's feelings for the u.s. that it's military recently gave an acid rebuke to a u.s. 'hot pursuit' mission of taliban across their border...and their intelligence arm is noted for being taliban sympathizers, and for having helped north korea get a-bomb technology...nOT to get political or anything, just noting irony)...i told sporty's it was actually disgusting and fraudulent on their part

my suggestion to them was that if they wanted to hoodwink buyers of u.s. military jackets, do it legally using the loophole of calling their jackets a-2 "type" or "style" jackets, as well as the anj-3 that they sell...that way they'd be correct, but seeing that their a-2 and anj-3 are made by our geopolitical paL, pakistan, i'd say these cannot be called a legit a-2 or anj-3 since such jackets are and were, if true to the name, only allowed to be made by u.s. manufacturers...

despite this rampage on my part, i am actually quite liberal on a lot of things...though i did always admire bill buckley jr., despite his rabid conservatism, for his purity and heartfelt beliefs...and of course his deep understanding of wHY he had the convictions he had...

i've made it overcLear on this issue...but let me end by hoping sporty's returns to selling u.s.-made u.s. spec military jackets...and take this to the bank, it doesn't have to be expensive...this weekend i received two incredibly beautiful jackets, an a-2 and a g-1, both current milspec issue (the a-2 is made to current milspec requirements, which allow a side pocket and no throat hook,however the side pockets are hidden, and can be sewn over if desired)

these current milspec jackets are actually made for the u.s. military, with contract numbers, by, yes, a non-pakistani company...in fact by a non-foreign company...because real u.s. milspec jackets for the u.s.military sHOULD be, and the contracts are handed out to u.s. companies so our men and women don't have to depend on foreign contractors to supply us with our military ware...even if someone overseas can make it cheaper (whether large segments of their governments support the taliban or not)...

the jackets are excelled, and they are available at leathercoatsetc. for $229 each, $239 in the long size i ordered...free shipping...

no sporty's, you don't have to go to the far east to find a jacket to sell to Americans, especially u.s. military pilots...if leathercoatsetc. can do it in the u.s., and by a union manufacturer (gee, how American)...then you can sporty's!

i'd say reward this company for what they are doing...as a kennedy liberal, i'm proud to sound like a flag waving redneck...support and buy American!

http://leathercoatsetc.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=262
(the goat a-2 and g-1 are on page 2 of the link above)

johnnyjohnny

NoTE: thought i'd mention that on the a-2s, they run a full size big...they are a full size bigger than the g-1s the same company makes...

 

[GHQ1]

HoLy NecrOpOst!

Came across this thread on an ANJ-3 research related jag . .Nice of you johnnyjohnny to have purchased such a wide variety of mil leathers . . .

Thought it interesting to bifurcate the discussion into: 1) the origin of the leather and (2) the sewing/cutting/making itself

Noticed that Gibson & Barnes uses goatskin from Baluchistan (southern Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan -- had to look that one up!) . . and lambskin from the "Middle East" (Somalia? Egypt? Syria? Israel? such a wide lamb net to cast)

. .and everyone raves about the G&B leather . . so the Balochis must be treatin their goats right!

 

[omar]

leathercoatsetc.

Just a note on leathercoatsetc; I just bought a g-8 from them. Very nice people to deal with, they actually tried to find someone my size to try on a jacket. They are quitting the G-8 and were closing them out; and for the money it was hard to argue. I'm not a large guy, but I am of normal proportions The jacket I got was ok in almost every way, except that the sleaves were almost 3' too long. I should have sent it back, but the rest of the jacket was great, well made and fit well; I decided to shorten the sleaves, and am happy with the result. My point is only that they may claim a mil-spec fit, but what I experienced was some pretty funky sizing, but I would agree they are a US company that produces a union made product at a reasonable cost, and I would consider another jacket from them. Omar

 

[johnnyjohnny]

sLeeeeeeeeVe it aLone, OMAR!

interesting info on the origins of leather...

as for the longs sleeves, be careful omar...remember these flier jackets, especially the very early ones, were all variants of motorcycle jackets...and many of those have long sleeves when your arms are down, but when arms are up stretched in front of you, as would be when riding a motorcycle, or operating to some extent in an early cockpit, the sleeves may be proper...so check it out before irreparably cutting that fine pakistani goat!

baaaaaaaaaaah!

 

[omar]

Sleaves

I should add, these sleaves were too long, even taking your point into account. I build 40's era hot rods, and am well aware of "cockpit" fit. I wear a size 40, and have a 40 long just for running the car. I already cut the g-8 down, and like I said, I'm happy with the final result, Omar

 

[Peacoat]

Johnnyx2 your posts on this topic prove what I have often thought: you are nuts! But nuts in the right way. I agree with you. Having been a military pilot, it really needs to be the real thing for me to wear it. Not a copy made in Pakistan. Not that there is anything wrong with that, as they say, but it just ain't real for me.

Now you have to realize that the Army and the Air Force got the short end of the deal on leather jackets: we didn't get any. Only the Navy and Marine Corps got the leather. As it turned out, I never needed anything other than nylon anyway, because of where I was stationed--all relatively warm weather assignments. When it came time to recreate my issued flight jacket, a copy just wouldn't get it done for me. I had to have the exact type and approximate year that was issued to me. The guys on the Vintage Leather Forum knew exactly what I needed and were most helpful. You would think that an unpatched nylon flight jacket would be relatively inexpensive. Not so. I don't remember the exact price, but a highly prized 1962 Skyline was going for maybe $500 or $600 a couple of years ago. Fortunately my flight jacket was issued about four years after that, so the expense wasn't nearly that much.

The point of all of this is that although you may be nutty, there are others of us out here who are nutty as well. Carry on Johnnysquared.

 

[kojax]

give me my g-1 lambskin jacket i will be a happy camper........

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Well..we certainly have a couple that are the cream of the crop...that's for sure...
HD