Coat arm holes, how high is high?

[KILO NOVEMBER]

Word from Thailand

I've just got a message from my tailors:

"Thanks for your email, We would go through the article and start tailoring your new jacket soon."

Film at eleven.

 

[Creeping Past]

I admire your tenacity.

I visited a relatively well-known London tailor early in the summer. After asking him if he could make a jacket after the photos and illustrations I'd shown him, he said yes, but warned against high amholes as, according to him, I'd find them too uncomfortable. He was also not keen to make jackets in the fabric I preferred, warning me that they weren't high-status enough. I lost heart quite quickly, not having the energy to argue, and decided against using him.

 

[Feraud]

What fabric were you interested in that was not status enough?

 

[Creeping Past]

Cotton twill, in khaki. Clearly, not a status fabric. I can understand his not wanting to be associated with something that's not immediately fine-looking. But surely it's the tailoring that's the important bit.

 

[Richard Warren]

There probably are quantitative rules of thumb for arm hole dimensions that are the best balance for most people. These are probably what decent manufacturers of clothing use to make decent off the rack suits.

Jimmy Cagney was an actor who wore costumes in movies.

 

[Creeping Past]

Jimmy Cagney was an actor who wore costumes in movies.

So was Fred Astaire. And those (nicely constructed and tailored) costumes allowed them to move relatively freely. I think I know what you're saying, but, costume or not, they were constructed to be worn for a purpose... and they worked.

 

[Richard Warren]

One might also recall the Messrs. Cagney and Astaire were professional dancers.

Clothes can only do so much.

 

[Creeping Past]

One might also recall the Messrs. Cagney and Astaire were professional dancers.

Clothes can only do so much.

Yes. But you don't have to be a professional dancer to appreciate and make best use of the freedom of movement afforded by a more fitted coat.

I'm best described as unathletic. But even I respond well to and move quite well in a coat with a high, relatively tight armhole that fits around the waist.

 

[Feraud]

The photos I posted in the thread that was linked to this one shows Cagney in a non dancing role.

 

[Lone_Ranger]

The photos I posted in the thread that was linked to this one shows Cagney in a non dancing role.

Right! Cagney may be an actor in costume, but in the posted pictures, he is in the 'costume' of a character, who can afford a well tailored, (well fitting) high end suit. He is wearing the suit, rather than the suit wearing him.

 

[Richard Warren]

The point is not that Cagney was dancing in the picture, but that as a dancer he was in really good physical condition. People in really good physical condition can wear clothes that I for one cannot.

 

[Tailor Tom]

I rarely post anything here, but a few things I have read caught me, and I thought I must reply. As a Tailor of custom suiting, and also having spent years costuming clients for shows, I can tell you, that there is a great difference between the two.

1. Actors: concerning suits vs costumes....In Hollywood's heyday, most actresses had their clothing created by the studio, and its design team ( ala Edith Head, etc.). Male actors, on the other hand, typically were given a clothing allowance, and costuming guidelines in which to work with their tailor ( or House) of choice. Many worked directly with Savile Row, with each house having its own look and fit. Some were known for a tighter, more fitted garment with major waist suppression, etc (think Fred Astaire, Cary Grant), others were known for that relaxed fit (think Bing Crosby). Gene Kelly, probably showcased the American relaxed fit much above any other, in chinos and a polo.

Many costumes are made off-balance (ie; proportionally different in front-back ratios than that of a regular suit. Typically the fronts are cut smaller, and with a forward pitch, the backs larger to accommodate reach, the sleeves rotated forward etc (ie; dancing or reaching to play an instrument). Costumes rarely look good when just standing still, they need to be put in their performing position to look proper.

As a side note; I once had a client who was a First-chair Violinist. He performed in the front row, with his right shoulder to the audience. We fit his clothing for reach, comfort and cleanliness of garment lines in his "play" position. When not in that position, the garment fit improperly.

2. The American cut, has always included a deeper armhole in its make-up. Any made-to-measure organization, expressly if they are primarily catering to the US, has their patterns geared towards their largest client demographic (ie; relaxed Americans).

This translates into a clothing company that produces everything by rote. They, just don't know how to deviate from the normal pattern. And from the order to the processing, to the transfer of information, to the pattern maker, to the cutter, any special requests are usually lost.

3. The bigger problem ( in my eyes) in dealing with made-to measure organizations is the quality of the workmanshipand materials .....or lack there of.

A handmade suit can easily require 40+ labor hours, it is this highly skilled labor that drives the majority of a Bespoke or custom suit. In order to create a proper garment, with all of its thousands of internal stitches, it just takes time, no matter how fast you sew. Several fittings along the way, with great communication from both sides, ensure a proper fit, particularly with a clients first garment.

If these made-to-measure organizations are cranking things out in what seems like an astonishingly quick time-frame, corners are being cut somewhere, somehow. The likely culprits are standardized patterns, and a fused garment instead of individual patterns and a full hand-stitched canvas front. Fusing comes loose, particularly when the garments are cleaned, and leads to a poor show of the garment.

[ sidebar: Most cleaners tend to just throw the coat on a suzie-type steamer. This type of system actually blows steam through the garment from the inside out while it is on an inflatable form. This tends to loosen the bond of interfacing to the cloth, resulting in "bubbles" on the garments surface (Just a bad look really!). Versus a true press, which pushes steam and heat through the garment while it is between metal plates and padding, and then uses a vacuum system to extract the moisture. The press in contoured, which makes for better pressing of the collar, chest curve, shoulders areas, etc. A good presser, can and will block back into shape areas that have stretched or sagged from usage.

While on the subject of cleaning.... Don't over-clean your suit. The harsh chemicals, that the majority of cleaners use, harm the fabrics and dry them out. Some cleaners have started using more environmentally friendly processes, I would search those out. One or two cleanings per season should cover most things. Hang out your garments, have them steamed or freshened as needed for a good appearance. Locate a cleaner that will "spot clean" your garments should you spill something on them, rather than subjecting the entire garment to a cleaning. Remove the garments from the plastic bags when you get them home and let them air out. Never store them in plastic. ]

4. The dreaded arm-hole itself; Is there a definitive measurement for a high armhole..... not really. Armholes are based on a series of mathematical formulas, typically based on a persons height and chest size. Many times involving 1/3, 1/6, 1/8 divisions of the chest measurement, does he have a full, barrel chest or flat chest, how much ease is built in, etc.. This all goes back to who laid out the pattern, and who it was first designed for.

What does all this mean....it means that designers and pattern makers all have their own individual points of view, as to what is proper. A designer can create a look he is pleased with on a "fit-model" who has typically 40-42 inch chest and 6-6.2 feet tall. Then subsequent grading of the pattern larger or smaller. This never translates properly to someone who is say, 5-8.

So, what can you do other than going the Bespoke route? I say try it on first. Ask to see samples in what the made-to-measure representative claims is "your" size, or close to it. Try them on, make sure you are talking about the same area when questioning something like armholes, back, etc. Can they even deviate from their "normal" layout ? Can they do a buck for fitting prior to the actual garment? Bring a coat along that you already have that you like the fit of, or like certain attribute of.

The idea of asking you to measure the armhole and make changes based on that is simple ridiculous ! They are supposed to be the professionals on this matter. Ask 5 different tailors to measure the same thing and you will get 5 different answers. All dependent upon how tight the pulled the tape, fabric stretched, etc. If they are trying to put the liability on you for the changes.....walk away!
A competent tailor should back his product.

Thank you for enduring this lengthy post, I got a bit carried away.

Enjoy your clothes,

Tom

 

[Creeping Past]

Thanks, Tom. That's really useful.

I take your point about costume dress often being a different thing entirely from everyday wear.

But I'm still left wondering whether the slightly more naturalistic style of the movies, as they developed, compared with the greater movement apparent in theatrical performances, provided the opportunity for wardrobe departments to kit non-character actors out in more standard suits, jackets, etc.

For instance, I can't see that the Cagney jacket mentioned is especially different in any respects, other than being made for the man, albeit made for a man who knows how to move.

 

[Tomasso]

Several fittings along the way, with great communication from both sides, ensure a proper fit, particularly with a clients first garment.

The cold hard truth. The tailor (cutter/fitter) must be able to lay his hands on you, early and often.

 

[KILO NOVEMBER]

Stretching the model

Thanks to Tailor Tom for an insider's view. He has given us a good insight into the challenge I have put to my made-to-measure tailors. His post pretty clearly draws the distinction between the business model of the made-to-measure business and the bespoke business far better than I could.

My guys are standing behind the product. They have offered to re-do the coat at their expense. What we are trying to determine is whether or not what I asked for is possible given the realities of their business model. That is to say, to what degree is it economically feasible to make the change I'm asking given their production model, cost model, and price model.

If it turns out that they can't deliver at the agreed price point, then I have learned something valuable and so have the readers of TFL posts. I won't beat them up if it turns out that what I'm asking isn't economically feasible. In terms of the risk management model I outlined in an earlier post, I am prepared to accept the risk.

 

[Lone_Ranger]

Tailor Tom, that WAS very helpful. Thanks for the input. I see it's your first post here. Welcome to the Lounge!

(now, if you have any information on converting a US size, to a European size, I'll have to PM you. )

 

[Feraud]

Well said Tailor Tom.
Thanks for posting.

 

[BellyTank]

This whole thread is worrying me...
I fear the function is fast becoming lost.

"The concept of high arm-holes", as I see it, is one of function-
rendering the jacket wearable, allowing the wearer to move and function, without having to resort to removing the jacket.
Being able to drive, without the jacket being around the back of one's head,
able to put hands on hips without lifting the jacket, etc...
Not much to ask.

So- I put it to "you", forget about measurements, circumference, angle
for a moment and look here:

The cold hard truth. The tailor (cutter/fitter) must be able to lay his hands on you, early and often.

Then here:

The function and necessity of the (comparitively)"high armhole", if I'm right,
is that the "armpit" of the jacket is close enough to the armpit of the wearer,
that BOTH the jacket armpit and the wearer's armpit should move as one,
rather than fighting each other, as you would expect with a cheap/ill-fitting/OTR suit jacket. Lifting your arm, the jacket armpit is close enough that it follows the movement and doesn't lift everything up- but it's not just the up movement.

Proximity of the jacket's points of articulation, to those of the wearer.

It needs to be seen, to be performed by a Tailor, it cannot really be guessed.

There is also the top of the shoulder to think of- if the arm must come up,
then that cloth has to move somewhere...

We need to think if we want the "looks", or the "function", or hopefully both.
A "tight" armhole might look good in a still photo but it needs to perform,
to allow movement.

As I said- want a close armpit/armhole, then the shoulder needs to be considered but not just the shoulder- there needs to be "some" cloth available in the back, too, perhaps.
Remember many '30s jackets had close armholes AND "action/sports backs", allowing a smart appearance from the front AND a good range of motion, due to the gussetted/pleated back.
The "extra cloth" is "hidden" in the gussets and pleats, waiting to jump into action, as necessary and spring back when not.

Imagine an outline of a man standing, with arms out-stretched.
Now draw another outline close to the chest, armpit and sleeve,
following this inverted/flipped "L" armpit shape.
This is what the jacket must do- the jacket must follow the body,
or it will fight you. Imagine that the "corner" of your armpit and that of the jacket you're wearing, are on the same bisecting angle, out of the armpit.

No batwings- we are lifting our arms, not skydiving.

Armpit in ampit, folding and opening as one.
Armpit Zen.


B
T

 

[Richard Warren]

Imagine if you will Feraud's avatar. Imagine if you will Feraud's avatar weighing 250 lbs, but with the same size/circumference armholes and sleeves. That would, in my view, not be a good look.

While I defer to the knowledge of a competent tailor, it seems to me that mass producers of suits (on this side of the Atlantic at least) make what they make (a boxy suit with large armholes) because that is what looks best on those who buy suits (that is to say, older, larger men, with a high ratio between the circumference of the body and the arm). This is accentuated on some relatively expensive mass produced suits, on the theory that those who can afford them are in fact older, larger men.

That is not to say that those with a different body shape might not benefit from a different style. On the other hand, it is a dubious process for anyone to seek from a tailor a style not suited to his actual shape.

 

[Tailor Tom]

US to Metric conversion

Tailor Tom, that WAS very helpful. Thanks for the input. I see it's your first post here. Welcome to the Lounge!

(now, if you have any information on converting a US size, to a European size, I'll have to PM you. )

Lone Ranger,

The sizing for suits in Metric is rather simple. It is based on the fact that only 1/2 the coat is patterned, since it is made symmetrically ( ie; left same as right, etc). They use 1/2 of the full chest measurement in centimeters as the grading dynamic.

example: a man with a US 38 inchs roughly equals 96 centimeters, divide this in half and you have a European size 48.

a US 44" chest is approx. 112 cm..divide by 2 = 56 Euro size

hope this helps

tom