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Cockpit usa jackets
- Thread starter omar
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Flitcraft
One Too Many
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What type of jacket did you buy- A2,G1, etc...?
kampkatz
Practically Family
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Don't forget to post photos when the A2 arrives. Thanks in advance.
johnnyjohnny
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gooD deaL!
i'm a big fan of cockpit usa...which used to be avirex...the history is well known, the clyman's redesigned the ww2 a-2 when congress okayed it's return as an issued item to military aviators...then the company started having their jackets made for the civvy market with funny paintings on the back, seams down the middle of the back, and, worst, made in korea rather than the u.s. at all
they sold the company but retained a division for mil jackets which they operate and call cockpitusa, and they have seen the light, and stress very much authenticity in their milspec jackets, and also do some reproductions of various types and eras of jackets that do not fully comply with mil specs from the era, but are admirable
if you got a milspec, it should be first rate...just wondering if it's current mil spec, with hidden side pockets and no throat hook, or the old style, with only top entry pockets and the hook
either way, they're a good choice
i'm a big fan of cockpit usa...which used to be avirex...the history is well known, the clyman's redesigned the ww2 a-2 when congress okayed it's return as an issued item to military aviators...then the company started having their jackets made for the civvy market with funny paintings on the back, seams down the middle of the back, and, worst, made in korea rather than the u.s. at all
they sold the company but retained a division for mil jackets which they operate and call cockpitusa, and they have seen the light, and stress very much authenticity in their milspec jackets, and also do some reproductions of various types and eras of jackets that do not fully comply with mil specs from the era, but are admirable
if you got a milspec, it should be first rate...just wondering if it's current mil spec, with hidden side pockets and no throat hook, or the old style, with only top entry pockets and the hook
either way, they're a good choice
Thanks, That's a good report on Cockpit. I don't know if it is old or new mil-spec, there was only one picture of the jacket, but it does have the velcro patch on the chest, so I'm guessing it's new. I happen to hate side entry pockets, so that's not so good. But if it fits, I may keep it, but until it gets here, it's all speculation. Omar
johnnyjohnny
Practically Family
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no spec(uLation), it's miLspec
hi...the velcro patches were for the nametag, and if there's one on each side of the chest, then for the insignia as well...these were only (i believe) put on milspec avirex a-2s of the 80s (possibly 90s, but i doubt it) so yours would/should be milspec...check the label and it should say avirex, and since it has turned into cockpitusa they might have used the name interchangeably on ebay...
a number of sites out there will make up your own name patch to put on the velcro, and you can get an insignia patch as well, either on ebay or from a site like gibson and barnes...tho there is much debate on non-mils (not supposing one way or the other if you are/aren't) wearing insignias...
i personally love the felix-bomb patch, have one, and will at some point put it on a jacket...used to have a black cat named rachel who i still love many years after her passing...
hi...the velcro patches were for the nametag, and if there's one on each side of the chest, then for the insignia as well...these were only (i believe) put on milspec avirex a-2s of the 80s (possibly 90s, but i doubt it) so yours would/should be milspec...check the label and it should say avirex, and since it has turned into cockpitusa they might have used the name interchangeably on ebay...
a number of sites out there will make up your own name patch to put on the velcro, and you can get an insignia patch as well, either on ebay or from a site like gibson and barnes...tho there is much debate on non-mils (not supposing one way or the other if you are/aren't) wearing insignias...
i personally love the felix-bomb patch, have one, and will at some point put it on a jacket...used to have a black cat named rachel who i still love many years after her passing...
Atticus Finch
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Just some random thoughts concerning Cockpit A-2s:
Avirex's first contract with the USAF was in 1998. From 1988 until 1997 Cooper (Saddlery) made A-2s for the Air Force. Cooper had two contracts, one in 1988 and one in 1996. Branded Leather (Orchard) also had a smaller 1992 contract. Sometime after 1998, Avirex became Cockpit and Cockpit remains the current and sole supplier of Air Force A-2s. I have never owned a Cockpit A-2, but I have owned issued Avirex A-2s. In fact, I currently have two of them, one being the only A-2 that I ever wear.
The Velcro patch receivers on issued jackets (all three brands) were sewn onto the shell of the jacket before the jacket's lining was attached, so the thread holding the receivers can't be seen inside the jacket. All three brands attached two receivers on their jackets---one for a name tag on the left chest and one for a command patch on the right chest. I’ve never seen a civilian “mil-spec” A-2 with factory attached Velcro patch receivers(s), but one shouldn't read too much into that statement. I’m more of an issued jacket kind of guy and I’ve never paid too much attention to the modern, civilian A-2s.
The jacket now being sold by the Air Force (truthfully, they aren't really "issued"), is what I would call a third-generation A-2---jackets from the 1988-1998 era being the second generation and WWII jackets being the first. The third generation A-2s have side-entry pockets, lack throat latches and have inside pockets. The first two generations had none of these features.
It has been my experience that "mil-spec" is a much used but somewhat amorphous term when it comes to military flight jackets. Frankly, I think that it is more of an advertising slogan than a term of art. By way of example, Cooper used to sell a mil-spec A-2 that was supposed to be exactly like the issued Saddlerys. Some even claimed that Cooper's military jackets were pulled randomly from their civilian jacket production line (or vise versa). Well…no. If you've ever held a civilian Cooper in one hand while holding an issued Saddlery in the other, you undoubtedly understand that they are not the same jacket.
When I started buying current-issue A-2s (including Avirex A-2s), many of my jacket-head friends on another forum made great fun of me. One would have thought that I had just begun dating a sheep. But I have always thought that the current issue A-2s were of good quality and good value. I will say this: The first Saddlerys were issued in 1988---now twenty-one years ago---and every one that I've ever seen has withstood tough military wear very nicely. The same goes for the Avirex jackets.
I look forward to seeing photos of your new jacket.
AF
Avirex's first contract with the USAF was in 1998. From 1988 until 1997 Cooper (Saddlery) made A-2s for the Air Force. Cooper had two contracts, one in 1988 and one in 1996. Branded Leather (Orchard) also had a smaller 1992 contract. Sometime after 1998, Avirex became Cockpit and Cockpit remains the current and sole supplier of Air Force A-2s. I have never owned a Cockpit A-2, but I have owned issued Avirex A-2s. In fact, I currently have two of them, one being the only A-2 that I ever wear.
The Velcro patch receivers on issued jackets (all three brands) were sewn onto the shell of the jacket before the jacket's lining was attached, so the thread holding the receivers can't be seen inside the jacket. All three brands attached two receivers on their jackets---one for a name tag on the left chest and one for a command patch on the right chest. I’ve never seen a civilian “mil-spec” A-2 with factory attached Velcro patch receivers(s), but one shouldn't read too much into that statement. I’m more of an issued jacket kind of guy and I’ve never paid too much attention to the modern, civilian A-2s.
The jacket now being sold by the Air Force (truthfully, they aren't really "issued"), is what I would call a third-generation A-2---jackets from the 1988-1998 era being the second generation and WWII jackets being the first. The third generation A-2s have side-entry pockets, lack throat latches and have inside pockets. The first two generations had none of these features.
It has been my experience that "mil-spec" is a much used but somewhat amorphous term when it comes to military flight jackets. Frankly, I think that it is more of an advertising slogan than a term of art. By way of example, Cooper used to sell a mil-spec A-2 that was supposed to be exactly like the issued Saddlerys. Some even claimed that Cooper's military jackets were pulled randomly from their civilian jacket production line (or vise versa). Well…no. If you've ever held a civilian Cooper in one hand while holding an issued Saddlery in the other, you undoubtedly understand that they are not the same jacket.
When I started buying current-issue A-2s (including Avirex A-2s), many of my jacket-head friends on another forum made great fun of me. One would have thought that I had just begun dating a sheep. But I have always thought that the current issue A-2s were of good quality and good value. I will say this: The first Saddlerys were issued in 1988---now twenty-one years ago---and every one that I've ever seen has withstood tough military wear very nicely. The same goes for the Avirex jackets.
I look forward to seeing photos of your new jacket.
AF
jack miranda
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Thanks, Atticus, your post filled in several blanks
in my map of the 'geography' of A-2's. I bought my dad a Sadlery A-2 a few years ago; it seemed a good quality jacket to me, and, I knew it came from Cooper by some route. I've been noodling around for years, learning 'on the fly' about who builds what and the relative merits of each, chasing manufacturers from labels read on ebay, and other arcane methods. This forum, and the VLJ are marvels of information, and inspiration. Thanks, again.
in my map of the 'geography' of A-2's. I bought my dad a Sadlery A-2 a few years ago; it seemed a good quality jacket to me, and, I knew it came from Cooper by some route. I've been noodling around for years, learning 'on the fly' about who builds what and the relative merits of each, chasing manufacturers from labels read on ebay, and other arcane methods. This forum, and the VLJ are marvels of information, and inspiration. Thanks, again.
More great information! I hope my "what the hell" purchase lives up to the great discussion it started. Since the term mil-spec is being tossed around, another question comes to mind; to me this term means "military fit" which to me means a slim fit.Am I right about this? my gripe with Avirex and their civilian jackets, in my experience, is their erratic sizing and fit. I think I have bought and sold at least a half dozen Avirex jackets that were sized either small or 38 or 40 and all were big, some huge. I'm a pretty small guy, and I've yet to find a Avirex that even came close to fitting me. But, I will admit, I'm kind of fussy, I guess that how I ended up at the lounge. Omar
johnnyjohnny
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baHHHHHHHHH!
uh, so...what's wrong with dating a sheep?
ok, there might be soMe problems, but back to the question at hand...
probably need some definition of 'milspec' and 'issued'...
i know when i use milspec, and let me be aRRRRRogant enough to presume this is the proper meaning, milspec means that the jacket was made according to the actual military specs for this jacket at the date it was made...
as for "issued", i've been told for years now by my friends in the navy and air force that these jackets are NoT in fact issued...they simply comply with the milspec standards that allow them to be purchased and worn on duty by military personnel...so a number of manufacturers make them to milspec standards and it is up to the personnel to buy one from the px or elsewhere...i know excelled, building jackets in the usa at the unite factory, supplies a-2s and g-1s under contract with the air force and navy...or else they're lying on their website...all other manufacturers have a semantically more liberal definition of their milspec jackets, saying they supply them to military personnel, which makes sense since if the jacket is milspec, meets military qualifications as part of the uniform, the personnel can buy them from uswings, cockpit, gibson and barnes, etc
now back to this bigotry re sheep...
uh, so...what's wrong with dating a sheep?
ok, there might be soMe problems, but back to the question at hand...
probably need some definition of 'milspec' and 'issued'...
i know when i use milspec, and let me be aRRRRRogant enough to presume this is the proper meaning, milspec means that the jacket was made according to the actual military specs for this jacket at the date it was made...
as for "issued", i've been told for years now by my friends in the navy and air force that these jackets are NoT in fact issued...they simply comply with the milspec standards that allow them to be purchased and worn on duty by military personnel...so a number of manufacturers make them to milspec standards and it is up to the personnel to buy one from the px or elsewhere...i know excelled, building jackets in the usa at the unite factory, supplies a-2s and g-1s under contract with the air force and navy...or else they're lying on their website...all other manufacturers have a semantically more liberal definition of their milspec jackets, saying they supply them to military personnel, which makes sense since if the jacket is milspec, meets military qualifications as part of the uniform, the personnel can buy them from uswings, cockpit, gibson and barnes, etc
now back to this bigotry re sheep...
Atticus Finch
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Hi All,
When I refer to an "issued" jacket, I mean a jacket that has a military tag showing a SPO, DLA or DSA number (depending on the era of issue), to wit:
I agree with Johnnyjohnny that mil-spec should mean that the jacket was made according to the actual military specs for the jacket which existed at the time of the jacket's manufacture.
By the way, Johnny....Bh-aaaaaaabbbs says "hello".
AF
When I refer to an "issued" jacket, I mean a jacket that has a military tag showing a SPO, DLA or DSA number (depending on the era of issue), to wit:
I agree with Johnnyjohnny that mil-spec should mean that the jacket was made according to the actual military specs for the jacket which existed at the time of the jacket's manufacture.
By the way, Johnny....Bh-aaaaaaabbbs says "hello".
AF
update
The jacket came today, it's modern milspec alright, with the hidden side entrys, etc. It has a cockpit label, and it is very nice;EXCEPT it is the @#$%$ biggest size 38 that can be imagined; it is so big the waistband is below crotch height, my fingers barely poke out of the sleeves, and the cut is so generous if I ever decide to become a soccer ball thief, this is the jacket to take to the store.Needless to say this monster will be back on ebay next week. Anybody out there who's about 6 1/2 feet tall and could stand to lose a few pounds should check it out, It'll be listed as" A-2 flight jacket, Cockpit USA NWT". I shudder to think what a size 48 cut like this must be like. The quest continues.... Omar
The jacket came today, it's modern milspec alright, with the hidden side entrys, etc. It has a cockpit label, and it is very nice;EXCEPT it is the @#$%$ biggest size 38 that can be imagined; it is so big the waistband is below crotch height, my fingers barely poke out of the sleeves, and the cut is so generous if I ever decide to become a soccer ball thief, this is the jacket to take to the store.Needless to say this monster will be back on ebay next week. Anybody out there who's about 6 1/2 feet tall and could stand to lose a few pounds should check it out, It'll be listed as" A-2 flight jacket, Cockpit USA NWT". I shudder to think what a size 48 cut like this must be like. The quest continues.... Omar
johnnyjohnny
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sheep date
atticus, tell your sheep hi...
when i was growing uP i kept hearing how guys liked a sheep date...so i got into that whole scene...and then many years later i reaLiZed it was "cheap" date...but by then it was too late...it was quite a traumatic episode in my life...still today i cannot wear lambskin
but, that's neither here nor there...i guess we all should have warned omar that the post ww2 (88 to 90s) milspec a-2s were still rightey tightey as the british might say...a true military fit...but, alas, going into the 2000s the jacket manufacturers must have realized the snaCk food nation this country had become and uPsized everything a fuLL size at least...anything after 2000, even milspec, is at least one size over all that came before...
but milspec is rather misleading with these jackets...it's like mohammed came to the mountain...milspec changed to conform to the rather boVine turn of events in the human physiognomy...milspec since the 2000s has meant not only a size bigger, but big rounder sides...i'll give the quality deficient uswings.com at least one kudos in that, while their sizing is indeed one size too big, the shape of their milspec jackets is sharp and angular down the torso...if you can get them to send you one without untied threads sticking out all over, and without tears in the surface leather somewhere, you might like it
as for cockpitusa, even their current milspec is rounder and fuller, and oversized by one size (though they leave uswings behind concerning quality), but you can order their 1988 reissue version, and it is a bit better fit...but to get a great angular true milspec fit, you might go for their old style horsehide jackets...pricey, but nice old style patterns and fit...
good luck reselling what you got
atticus, tell your sheep hi...
when i was growing uP i kept hearing how guys liked a sheep date...so i got into that whole scene...and then many years later i reaLiZed it was "cheap" date...but by then it was too late...it was quite a traumatic episode in my life...still today i cannot wear lambskin
but, that's neither here nor there...i guess we all should have warned omar that the post ww2 (88 to 90s) milspec a-2s were still rightey tightey as the british might say...a true military fit...but, alas, going into the 2000s the jacket manufacturers must have realized the snaCk food nation this country had become and uPsized everything a fuLL size at least...anything after 2000, even milspec, is at least one size over all that came before...
but milspec is rather misleading with these jackets...it's like mohammed came to the mountain...milspec changed to conform to the rather boVine turn of events in the human physiognomy...milspec since the 2000s has meant not only a size bigger, but big rounder sides...i'll give the quality deficient uswings.com at least one kudos in that, while their sizing is indeed one size too big, the shape of their milspec jackets is sharp and angular down the torso...if you can get them to send you one without untied threads sticking out all over, and without tears in the surface leather somewhere, you might like it
as for cockpitusa, even their current milspec is rounder and fuller, and oversized by one size (though they leave uswings behind concerning quality), but you can order their 1988 reissue version, and it is a bit better fit...but to get a great angular true milspec fit, you might go for their old style horsehide jackets...pricey, but nice old style patterns and fit...
good luck reselling what you got
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