Customer experiences with Bill Kelso

[FAFOO68]

Hello gentlemen,
After seing Andrew's M-422 BK Willis & Geiger, I ordered a M - 422 for more than 6 weeks to Bill Kelso Mfg and ... still nothing.
In addition, responses to emails are slower than in Aero (thanks Amanda) for the same price range (£500).
I still managed to get a date of delivery (September 20 th) but not delivered.
After 2 others mails, Andy replied that the jacket would be shipped today but i still have any confirmation (tracking number) that my jacket has been shipped.
After your experiences, should I worry?
Should i wait or should i call Paypal for the purchase protection program ?
Thanks for your advice.

 

[ButteMT61]

Well, that's rough. PayPal is 30 days after purchase. Double check that.
Others have had similar issues. Some have received the jackets. Others not. Up to you, but if you're uncomfortable, protect yourself.
Good luck.

 

[KevG]

When Andy told me when my A2 would be shipped, it was.

So I reckon you will get it soon. Took 3 or 4 days from Greece to UK.

 

[mattp]

I had my jacket turn up in the UK pretty promptly after ordering from Andy, with good communication throughout but I never had a tracking number I don't think.

My only quibble was that the jacket stank like cigarette smoke initially, which has thankfully disappeared with airing.

Good luck,
Matt

 

[Fanch]

Hello gentlemen,
After seing Andrew's M-422 BK Willis & Geiger, I ordered a M - 422 for more than 6 weeks to Bill Kelso Mfg and ... still nothing.
In addition, responses to emails are slower than in Aero (thanks Amanda) for the same price range (£500).
I still managed to get a date of delivery (September 20 th) but not delivered.
After 2 others mails, Andy replied that the jacket would be shipped today but i still have any confirmation (tracking number) that my jacket has been shipped.
After your experiences, should I worry?
Should i wait or should i call Paypal for the purchase protection program ?
Thanks for your advice.

Since the jacket was promised 10 days ago but not delivered, and your e-mail inquiries have not been answered, you might wish to consider opening a dispute with Paypal. I think that the seller has a week or so to respond, and if he fails to do so, the dispute is in your favor. I suggest that you contact Paypal by telephone for direction in your situation. On a different note, my experience with Aero is that Amanda is very quick to respond to e-mails, which I think is what you were trying to say. I have no experience whatsoever with Bill Kelso Mfg. I will say that use of credit cards might be preferable to Paypal for anything other than immediate shipping.

 

[Aerojoe]

I placed and order with Bill Kelso one month ago but I haven't heard from him yet. [huh]

 

[mattp]

I did buy a house A-2 that was in stock, so maybe that made my process quicker than those that need to be made to order...

 

[FAFOO68]

Thanks guys,
Monday morning, i will contact Paypal for the buyer protection.
If BK are honest (i hope it is just a lack of communication), they will proof the shipping if they don't, i will be refund...
To me it will be a sad end because their M-422 looks really gorgeous.
Cheers,

P.S : Aerojoe, if i were you "je les tannerai" to have some information...

 

[Aerojoe]

I did buy a house A-2 that was in stock, so maybe that made my process quicker than those that need to be made to order...

Maybe. When I placed my order in late August, he has the factory closed for holidays. He was supposed to open again in September. Andy told me that normally an order is ready in 2 weeks. In my case this was almost two weeks ago.

I didn't contact him yet. I guess I'll have to wait until Monday.

 

[Jeff M]

Upon following Andrew's wait for BK to get in the appropriate mouton for his M 422, and then seeing posts over at the VLJ that BK now had the mouton in, I contacted BK to order a W&G M422 back the end of July.
In my email to them I asked if they now had in the leather, mouton, lining, thread, zipper, and whatever else was needed to make the jacket, and how long it would take to receive it once I ordered.
I was told that the jacket would ship "2 - 3 weeks from date of order", at which time I placed the order.
After about a month, I checked with them to see how things were going. Was told production was delayed due to a worker vacation.
Contacted again early september....was told it would be shipping September 20th.
Contacted them around the 22nd to see how things were going.....was told there was a postal strike.
Heard from them yesterday the jacket just shipped.

So..it looks like orders are shipping, albeit not on the time frame stated at time orders were placed.
I would have preferred beng told up front when I placed my order that it would ship sometime mid September rather than in 2-3 weeks from when I placed the order back in July.
There were supposedly no materials on back order for the jacket I ordered. (Another customer over at the VLJ ordered an A2 at exactly the same time I ordered my M 422...also asked if all the materials were on hand..was also given a 2-3 week shipping date. Later, when they hadn't received the jacket, they were like me told it would ship on Sept 20th. A couple of weeks ago was told BK was waiting for a supplier to deliver materials.)
I would expect BK to know the vacation schedule when their operation was shut down (Aero notifies customers at time of order if there is a vacation period coming up and how that will delay the order).

BK still seems to be in the process of lining up it's suppliers, organizing it's production and learning how to deal with customers.
From my experience and that of others I have read about I get the impression in order to keep orders coming in that if asked for a delivery/shipping date, their boiler plate reply is "2-3 weeks".

I have read good things about the quality of their jackets and am looking forward to receiving mine. Now if they can just do a better job of estimating/being up front about their shipping dates.

 

[Aerojoe]

I would have preferred beng told up front when I placed my order that it would ship sometime mid September rather than in 2-3 weeks.

Yeah, me too. I don't mind waiting if the product is good. When he told me two weeks I remember I thought it was way too fast.

 

[GoodTimesGone]

They would be better off giving customers a longer time frame for completion and shipping of the jacket. If it happened to actually end up being 2-3 weeks then it would be an unexpected surprise.
_________________________________
Tom

 

[JollyGreenSlugg]

I bought a house jacket from Bill Kelso a couple of months ago. There was quite a bit of back-and-forth between Andy and me, and he was very helpful, patiently dealing with my many questions and changing wishes.

The jacket arrived in Australia about a week after it was sent. I'm very happy with the service received, and plan to buy another jacket as finances allow. Being a house jacket did make a difference, but my customer experience was that BK were anxious to help me as far as possible.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[Jeff M]

I bought a house jacket from Bill Kelso a couple of months ago. There was quite a bit of back-and-forth between Andy and me, and he was very helpful, patiently dealing with my many questions and changing wishes.

The jacket arrived in Australia about a week after it was sent. I'm very happy with the service received, and plan to buy another jacket as finances allow. Being a house jacket did make a difference, but my customer experience was that BK were anxious to help me as far as possible.

Cheers,
Matt

From what I gleaned this past year from posts here and at the VLJ, BK seems to have had more problems getting their new line of "contract" A2's and M 422's out in a timely fashion. Their "house jacket" seems to ship promptly.

 

[andyfalzon]

Good day,
Thank you for your comments and we appreciate your concerns but you are not being entirely fair.
I read with surprise that we are not speedy in our replies when we mostly reply within the hour.
Our shop had to close the second half of August, but the office closed for one week only. That was the only period when emails were replied with a delay. We let everybody who contacted us that we had to close for holidays. I do not suppose your bosses or your customers expect you to work while you are on holidays.

We have an army of satisfied and happy customers and they send us congratulations when they receive the jackets. But every now and then comes somebody who cannot be pleased with anything or is excessively impatient sending us messages every other day to enquire about the progress of his jacket. Well, if you want to drink single malt whiskey, you got to have the patience and know that you have to put it in the oak barrels and wait 12 years until it matures. You can't get it the next day. Even the cheapest beer requires some time (months) of maturity.

These jackets are the product of a lot of research, thinking, planning designing, scouting for raw materials, constant improving and development and are linked to whole chain of processes (which also involve risks for us) that I can guarantee you, you have the opportunity to buy really cheap. You got to at least have the patience to allow us to make them for you. These jackets are indeed the work of art and we have only one artisan who makes them. He is specially trained, very experienced and irreplacable. Michaelangelo took 4 years to complete the Sistine Chapel ceiling. I am not making such a comparison, but I guess you get my point that a work of art, in whatever form it is, needs it's time.

Generally, we do not prefer to discuss such matters in public, but since you started this post please be informed that we are in the unpleasant position to receive today one wrongful claim for non-delivery. I would like to remind to our customers that when they place an order they agree with the terms of sale, which clearly state that in some cases delivery may take up to 2 months. Please see below extract from our website:

1. Shipping. Our standard delivery time is around 2/3 weeks. However, this is subject to change depending on transit times and other factors beyond our control. Delivery times may affected by shortage of materials required to construct your jacket. Our jackets are made out of a large variety of very carefully selected high quality materials of which it has proven to be very hard to maintain full inventory at all times. Also many of the materials used are custom made exclusively for us and as such we are at the mercy of our suppliers who take unknown amounts of time to procure our orders. As such, at extreme cases delivery may take up to 2 months. Also, we have only one artisan making the jackets (they are also very hard to find) and here you pay for high quality, not speed. At Bill Kelso, we always endeavor to complete your jacket as soon as possible.

The case with the customer in question is that he has waited 6 weeeks out of which we were closed for 2 and despite our assurances that his jacket would ship very soon, he went and initiated the claim, wrongfully, before expiry of the window of 2 months provided and in breach of our contractual the terms of sale.

The jacket of this particular customer has already shipped and we expect him to proceed to cancelation of his claim before we initiate action to repudiate it.

Finally, I would like to kindly ask our customers not to treat us like we are the Russian mafia, or some shady operation in a 4th world country. We are an exclusive boutique shop and we have business with the oldest most reputable and traditional tanneries in the world and other world class companies such as Ideal fastener etc.

 

[Aerojoe]

Well, I talked to Andy today about my order. He told me there was a delay in the supply of the leather I requested.

I actually told him not to worry. I mean, the backlog of most makers we buy from, is at least 4-5 months. I'm not expecting that suddenly one guy is going to start to deliver fine products in record time. [huh]

 

[FAFOO68]

Hello gentlemen,
It is sad / amazing to see what a Paypal claim can make to accelarate an order !
I made it to protect myself (past the 45 days of purchasing, it will be difficult to get your money back if the vendor is failing).
I had by the past a similar experience that i don't want to relive.
When the jacket be arrived and if everything is OK, i will contact Paypal to stop the machine...
Cheers,
Fafoo 68

 

[ButteMT61]

Hello gentlemen,It is sad / amazing to see what a Paypal claim can make to accelarate an order !I made it to protect myself (past the 45 days of purchasing, it will be difficult to get your money back if the vendor is failing).I had by the past a similar experience that i don't want to relive.When the jacket be arrived and if everything is OK, i will contact Paypal to stop the machine...Cheers,Fafoo 68

After Aero USA, you (everyone) has the right to protect themselves. BK probably is a stand-up operation, but once has to look out for #1. My money isn't come by easily, as I'm sure most folks can relate to. There's always reasons why orders fall behind, but you can not blame customers for being upset or worried.

 

[andyfalzon]

As we told you by email, if you cannot trust us then we don't want your business. The trade is based on mutual trust, not extortion. We operate under the doctrine that "the customer is always right" but there are certain limits. We will not tolerate extortion. We shipped the jacket well within the time provided in the agreed Terms of Sale. We have notified Paypal of your misconduct and wrongful and unlawful claim. Please return the jacket when you receive it and we will refund you plus costs. You are not welcome here.

 

[Jeff M]

As we told you by email, if you cannot trust us then we don't want your business. The trade is based on mutual trust, not extortion. We operate under the doctrine that "the customer is always right" but there are certain limits. We will not tolerate extortion. We shipped the jacket well within the time provided in the agreed Terms of Sale. We have notified Paypal of your misconduct and wrongful and unlawful claim. Please return the jacket when you receive it and we will refund you plus costs. You are not welcome here.

Andy, a suggestion.
One thing that would go a long way to alleviating this kind of problem is to provide customers with more realistic delivery estimates.
If it is going to be 2 to 3 months, tell them that when they email you and ask how long till they receive the jacket.
If you hope it will be 2 to 3 weeks but have been having problems with suppliers and running into delays, stick to the 2 to 3 month estimate. You won't get any worried/pissed off customers if you deliver a jacket ahead of schedule, and doubt you will loose any customers with the longer estimate.
I suspect few of your customers read the "fine print" of the "terms of agreement" section of your web site...and if they do, what you tell them face to face (or email to email) I'm sure trumps in their minds what is written in the agreement.

The on line written terms may allow you to "win the battle", but in the long run you end up "loosing the war" of customer service.