Japan Hunts Humpback Whales.

[scotrace]

A fleet of Japanese whaling ships are hunting the humpbacks, hoping to take 50.

 

[Feraud]

I was going to ask how stable the humpback whale population is. This quote answers it -

The American Cetacean Society estimates the humpback population has recovered to about 30,000-40,000 — about a third of the number before modern whaling. The species is listed as "vulnerable" by the World Conservation Union.
Japanese fisheries officials insist the population has returned to a sustainable level and that taking 50 of them will have no impact.

I noticed the quote said the numbers have "recovered". This tells me the hunters were irresponsible in their actions. Had it not been for 1960s moratorium on hunting whales, these creatures would now definitely be extinct. Unless the fishermen act responsibly (not fiscally responsible) these hunts should not be allowed. As humans claim to be the top predator on the food chain and the most intelligent (debatable) we have a responsiblilty to use our resources wisely. Hunting into extinction is not one of them. This precludes any tradition.

 

[eightbore]

Taste like chicken?

 

[Smithy]

Taste's like chicken?

It tastes nothing like chicken

 

[eightbore]

I didn't imagine they taste like chicken, I was joking.

Frankly, unless someone here has data exploring the total population of whales, their annual fertility, their natural mortality rates, the age distribution of the population, and the age distribution that is likely to be harvested, we are all going to critique or endorse this hunt from a position of ignorance (and likely emotion). All I know is I have legally hunted much rarer animals than this (twice actually) that were effectively managed and feel no guilt whatsoever. In fact, my expenses went right into funding management and therefore conservation so I actually feel pretty good about it. Perhaps a portion of whale hunt revenues could be directed toward research of the populations so a sustainable harvest might be ensured? The reality, no matter how unpleasant to some, is that a regulated market always works better than a "free" market in protecting public goods. This does NOT however mean that there is no place for market operations in the allocation of rare species as prohibitive policies always fall short too. Gotta love that Coase Theorem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem

Best,

eightbore

 

[Rooster]

It tastes nothing like chicken

Neither does grocery store chicken for that matter.lol You folks know I'm far from an animal rights activist. Having said that, I think it's time to give the whales a break for a while. They were mainly hunted for oil back in the day, and there are so many synthetic and petroleum based alternatives it makes hunting whales for oil somewhat pointless.
What purpose does whale hunting serve these days? Meat ? oil? Other?
Elephants too. Numbers are rapidly decreasing due to pouching and the fact that people and elephants are trying to live in the same area. They are hunted for their ivory as it brings an incredible price on the asian black market. Can't we just do with out carved ivory trinkets and artwork for a while?
Africa's big game is going to be in real danger in the coming decades as human population grows and habitat dwindles.

 

[Smithy]

I'm not going to say too much here as this could easily spiral into a political argument. But...

I will say that there is a big difference in how the Japanese whale compared with the Norwegians. I was vociferously anti-whaling before I first moved to Norway but I have changed after having lived here in Norway. However I deplore the methods and tactics used by the Japanese and believe that more has to be done to stop the current Japanese whaling strategy.

But I don't think there is a problem with sustainable whaling as practiced by Norway. It is hugely regulated, monitored and restricted. Many will disagree with me here on moral and ethical grounds, fair enough, that's your opinion and this is mine. However there is an huge amount of "armchair experts" (I was also one before coming here) who really don't know enough about the differences between the methods and attitudes of the Norwegian and Japanese methods.

Taste-wise, whale is a very meaty, rich meat. It is roughly the colour of venison or moose, very dark red, and looks nothing like fish (it's a mammal so why would it!). When cooked it resembles beef but has an "ocean/sea" flavour and is very, very rich. You can only eat a relatively small amount because of this. And contrary to popular belief most Norwegians would only eat it around once or twice a year, if even that.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I can but hope the whales take some humans down with them.

Top predator, my ass. Take away the harpoon and we're screwed. In fact, one man with one harpoon (that is non-explosive. Yeah like any of these hunters use non-explosive harpoons) has not a chance in hell against a whale.

bk

 

[Woland]

Dear Loungers.

Born & bred Norwegian, and see no ethical problem with whaling.
If one were to look behind emotional convictions, there is some facts to be considered...

1.
Whales are not mere whales...
That is; there are many different species.

2.
The natural balance between these species was ripped to shreds with industrial whaling (explosive harpoon & factory boiler-ships).

3.
Several of these species compete for food.
Since the natural balance is destroyed, the species who breed most effectively will have the upper hand and expand their numbers.

4.
From a conservationist point of view, the taxation of certain species is absolutely necessary in order to give the endangered species a chance of survival.

5.
Industrialized killing is a distasteful matter, no matter the animal (or human) who stands victimized.
Personally I find it more ethical to kill & eat an animal who has lived a full life outside captivity.
The life of most live-stock is a pitiful one...

6.
Whale is very tasty, I eat it 10-15 times a year.
Try the sashimi if given a chance.

 

[eightbore]

Elephants too. Numbers are rapidly decreasing due to pouching and the fact that people and elephants are trying to live in the same area... Africa's big game is going to be in real danger in the coming decades as human population grows and habitat dwindles.

Check out the elephant stats in countries that allow sport hunting relative to those that don't. The most stark contrast is between Zimbabwe and Kenya. Even in an extremely unstable political and economic environment, Zim has a workable safari industry (sport hunters paying $20K plus for elephant) and has seen its elephant population swell to MUCH more than it knows what to do with. Why? Because they can effectively fund conservation. Kenya hasn't allowed sport hunting in over 30 years and has seen its elephant population dramatically decline. This of course hurts their revenue and conservation even more. Why go on a photo safari to Kenya if you won't see the big five? Forget the abstract ethical issues when it comes to whaling and elephant hunting...if it pays, it stays (and flourishes!).

eightbore

 

[eightbore]

I can but hope the whales take some humans down with them.

:eusa_doh:

Top predator, my ass. Take away the harpoon and we're screwed.

The brain capacity to abstractly conceive of, and the manual dexterity to construct, the harpoon is precisely what makes us the top predator. Without the ability to transform our natural environment, humans would not last 15 minutes on the vast majority of the earth's surface. This does not mean, however, that we are "ill suited" to the planet. We're smarter and that counts for a lot historically.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

edit: i really can't be arsed with this argument today

bk

 

[scotrace]

Agreed BK. Waste of cpu.

There is one point to be made, however. The global message for as long as I've been alive has been that Humpback Whales are in danger and they need to be protected from being hunted. Every week there's something in some media repeating it. We get documentaries showing us their behavior, letting us hear their song. For more than forty years, the message has been a consistent "Save The Whales!"
So you'll have to forgive those of us who have been so thoroughly indoctrinated if we express some dismay at waking up one morning to find that they are being hunted and killed for sport. It feels a little like discovering that the trade in Bonobo hands-as-ashtrays has been given the green light.

 

[eightbore]

Agreed BK. It feels a little like discovering that the trade in Bonobo hands-as-ashtrays has been given the green light.

WHERE, WHERE? Just the thing to go with my evil and deadly pipe smoking habit! lol lol lol

 

[Camille]

I have no problem with whales being hunted and eaten. Living in Sweden, we have Norwegians hunting just outside our door. We ourselves hunt moose, although there aren't that many left of them. (Being raised in the country, we get alot of moose-meat from the hunters that's hunted on our grounds.)

What I -do- see a problem with, however, is the way that they are being hunted. One has to make sure not to take down too many in the same spot and be very catious with what kind of animals you're leaving.

I'm no expert, but somehow I'm getting the feeling that japanese whale hunters care less about this than norwegians.

 

[Smithy]

Agreed BK. Waste of cpu.

There is one point to be made, however. The global message for as long as I've been alive has been that Humpback Whales are in danger and they need to be protected from being hunted. Every week there's something in some media repeating it. We get documentaries showing us their behavior, letting us hear their song. For more than forty years, the message has been a consistent "Save The Whales!"
So you'll have to forgive those of us who have been so thoroughly indoctrinated if we express some dismay at waking up one morning to find that they are being hunted and killed for sport. It feels a little like discovering that the trade in Bonobo hands-as-ashtrays has been given the green light.

I'd agree with you on Humpbacks Scot. But the point I was trying to make earlier was that there is a tendency out there to lump all whaling nations together, when there is a very large difference between (for example) Norway and Japan.

 

[Rooster]

Check out the elephant stats in countries that allow sport hunting relative to those that don't. The most stark contrast is between Zimbabwe and Kenya. Even in an extremely unstable political and economic environment, Zim has a workable safari industry (sport hunters paying $20K plus for elephant) and has seen its elephant population swell to MUCH more than it knows what to do with. Why? Because they can effectively fund conservation. Kenya hasn't allowed sport hunting in over 30 years and has seen its elephant population dramatically decline. This of course hurts their revenue and conservation even more. Why go on a photo safari to Kenya if you won't see the big five? Forget the abstract ethical issues when it comes to whaling and elephant hunting...if it pays, it stays (and flourishes!).

eightbore

Yes , I understand this and believe it works. But, you let the greenies get involved in protecting everything and everything falls to pieces.

 

[Rooster]

Interesting to view the cultural views on this subject. The Scandinavians don't seem to think whaling a bad thing, but Americans who have been indoctrinated with the "Save the whales" agenda since kindergarten find whaling evil.....I guess we must all practice what we preach , and respect cultural diversity...

 

[HadleyH]

Taste like chicken?

No, taste like **** (sorry)

Stop the killing of whales.

Just stop it for heavens sake.

 

[eightbore]

Interesting to view the cultural views on this subject. The Scandinavians don't seem to think whaling a bad thing, but Americans who have been indoctrinated with the "Save the whales" agenda since kindergarten find whaling evil.....I guess we must all practice what we preach , and respect cultural diversity...

What's really interesting to me is the purely abstract and wholly relative aesthetic reasons certain animals on earth seem to warrant this indoctrination. It's also odd the degree to which we tend to anthopomorphise animals in the indoctrination process. Whales "sing" elephants live in "families" and people lose their mind if you talk about someone leopard hunting because the animals are "so beautiful" or "so elegant". Beautiful to who and in what context? Historically, nobody really seems to care if people kill ugly or physically uncoordinated animals which seems a bit unfair.

eightbore