Modern rabbit, vintage rabbit, modern beaver

[Dreispitz]

Back, up to the beginning of the 19c there was a strict dress order in Europe. 100% beaver fur hats were a privilege of a small social class. Others were only allowed to wear beaver hare mix hats according to their status. When the rules were abolished and anybody, who could aford a "Castor Hat" could buy and weare one, the demand for such hats was very high in the later 19c. This also lead to large imports friom the New World. The prices and the prestige went up, too. This development may be one factor, why beaver felt is so highly rated.

When we look at the 20c, we do find pure beaver hats, but the majority of middle to high class hats were made of beaver/hare blends.

So, when we talk about hare/rabbit vs. beaver, in vintage felts we will mostly encounter blends of either material.

Today´s mass market lids are distinctly retrograde despite the access to modern technology. Well, the market is simply not there to justify investments in craftsmanship and style of the old days on an industrial level to make the high enders of the past, today.

 

[avedwards]

I'm a fan of his facebook page.. He does some super nice work. Wouldn't mind having a Penmann. So he does the felting from raw fur to finished hat all the way then? Wow that's a lot of skills.

He buys the felts from Winchester, an American felt maker used by Art Fawcett as well (I think). However, he blocks and finishes them himself. My point earlier was that both rabbit and beaver felts undergo the same process from felting in the same factory to blocking and finishing by the same man, hence they can be compared. That's not to say his rabbit felt hats are of low quality, just not as good as his beaver ones.

 

[Dewhurst]

Today´s mass market lids are distinctly retrograde despite the access to modern technology. Well, the market is simply not there to justify investments in craftsmanship and style of the old days on an industrial level to make the high enders of the past, today.

You make it sound like hat manufacturing is a business or something and subject to all the volatility of business.

 

[avedwards]

You make it sound like hat manufacturing is a business or something and subject to all the volatility of business.

It is though isn't it? While someone like Art Fawcett is a craftsman he is also an entrepeneur. I can just imagine him drawing supply and demand diagrams now, deciding how many hats to make to meet the needs of his customers. Perhaps hat shares can be purchased too?

 

[Richard Warren]

If you think the price differential between rabbit and beaver in a fedora is big, consider what western hat makers charge for "20x beaver," "50 x beaver," etc. They don't even bother to tell you what those terms mean.

 

[daizawaguy]

...craftsman he is also an entrepeneur. I can just imagine him drawing supply and demand diagrams now, deciding how many hats to make to meet the needs of his customers.

I think (or hope) you meant that light heartedly. I feel compelled to comment as I started the thread, but I think the difference between a craftsman who does his trade for the love of the business and an entrepreneur can be seen in how much prices have changed over the years. Art has been on record that he is doing it for the clients satisfaction. I can tell you what (and this is a well discussed topic) that the differential between a ready made and a custom hand made is just too low - lets not go about claiming supply and demand or we may see where the real prices do really intersect on those curves...I would say 50% higher. But if you don`t mind, lets get the thread back onto the rabbit and other differences in fur...

 

[daizawaguy]

If you think the price differential between rabbit and beaver in a fedora is big, consider what western hat makers charge for "20x beaver," "50 x beaver," etc. They don't even bother to tell you what those terms mean.

Now there we have a good point! :eusa_clap

 

[avedwards]

I think (or hope) you meant that light heartedly. I feel compelled to comment as I started the thread, but I think the difference between a craftsman who does his trade for the love of the business and an entrepreneur can be seen in how much prices have changed over the years. Art has been on record that he is doing it for the clients satisfaction. I can tell you what (and this is a well discussed topic) that the differential between a ready made and a custom hand made is just too low - lets not go about claiming supply and demand or we may see where the real prices do really intersect on those curves...I would say 50% higher. But if you don`t mind, lets get the thread back onto the rabbit and other differences in fur...

Be assured, I was just joking. I just like making jokes about supply and demand curves as I would otherwise find economics a bit dull. Art is indeed a craftsman, one day to be valued by me when I become a customer.

As for the thread, I think the difference between beaver and rabbit is like comparing a Federation IV regular and deluxe - some people say it's noticable and worth the extra cost, some people say it's not that great.

 

[daizawaguy]

Be assured, I was just joking.

:eusa_clap :eusa_doh: :eusa_doh: :eusa_doh:

 

[cmalbrecht]

my understanding is that the Belgian Hare is really a rabbit that has been bred to have many of aspects of a hare, and the appearance as well. Supposed to be good stuff for hats and I thought Borsalino (at least in the past) used only Belgian Hare, which of course were not wild. My vintage Borsalino is so soft and pliable that I can bash it any old way and it looks great. Nothing in the hat says what it is made of, but I go with the Belgian Hare until I hear better.

 

[mayserwegener]

my understanding is that the Belgian Hare is really a rabbit that has been bred to have many of aspects of a hare, and the appearance as well. Supposed to be good stuff for hats and I thought Borsalino (at least in the past) used only Belgian Hare, which of course were not wild. My vintage Borsalino is so soft and pliable that I can bash it any old way and it looks great. Nothing in the hat says what it is made of, but I go with the Belgian Hare until I hear better.

They had so many different finishes. I know they didn't use one type of fur (or mix of furs). I know Germany and Czech (previously Austria) were also big suppliers raw hare fur and finished felt.

 

[carouselvic]

I have seen vintage Borsalinos made from nutria as well.

 

[avedwards]

My way of finding out how high the quality a felt is, is rolling up the hat and seeing how easily the creases are removed afterwards. If I do this with my Stetson Chatham (in my avatar) the creases take a while to get out by hand, less if I use steam. When I try it with my slightly newer Susquehana Hat Co fedora (modern maker named after an Abbot and Costello sketch) I need little more than a few seconds reshaping in my hands. Both are rabbit felts, but I can only conclude that the Susquehana hat is better than the Stetson (which is still a very nice hat) although thickness may play a role in this too (the Stetson being considerably thicker).

 

[duggap]

I would also think the amount of stiffener used would have something to do with it.[huh]

 

[avedwards]

I would also think the amount of stiffener used would have something to do with it.[huh]

I would agree there. The Stetson is a lot stiffer.

 

[Belegnole]

Interesting thread. It may prove in the end that pricing reflects preconceived notions that have no bearing in fact.

If what I am seeing here is correct, then the beaver hats are severely over priced in most aspects in comparison with the rabbit/hair because the public expects to pay it. Not because it costs the industry that much more.

 

[marvelgoose]

I think a beaver roughbody is about twice the cost of a rabbit roughbody. As in $30 to $15 or something like that.

Materials cost is just one small part of price. labor is also a factor. No one has addressed if beaver is harder to work or involves more time to finish.

Are the sub-quality Beaver bodies more numerous than the sub-quality hare? A higher percentage of unusable beaver bodies would mean higher cost.

Certainly, the largest factor is that a bespoke hatter can only make so many hats a year. The motivation would be to produce the hats that supply the larger margin as the most valuable input is your time.

All things being equal, I propose that the reason for a $150 difference between hare and beaver would be to motivate buyers to go with the beaver because the price is signaling better quality.

Over now to people who have facts to address my conjectures.

 

[BlindeMan]

Nutria hats

This conversation reminds me of an exchange from the Seinfeld episode "The Chicken Roaster":

Ipswitch: Ms. Benes, the hat you charged to the company was sable, this is nutria.

Elaine: Well, that's a kind of sable.

Ipswitch: No, its a kind of rat.

Elaine: That's a rat hat?

Ipswitch: And a poorly made one, even by rat hat standards.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Good point. They are almost equally weighted (thickness). But what is quite different is the stiffness. They obviously feel different, but the degree of stiffness makes me think that the fur density is different. That is, the modern rabbit ones need more stiffner, and the beaver`s hairs are the finest and is more supple. Another feature is the roll down/snap down of the brim. the modern ones `click` down (more stiffner?), whereas the vintage and beaver roll/melt down, and you can shape them...any thoughts anyone?

Not all vintage is fantastic. I find the best stuff up until the 50s where felts tend to feel a bit drier and break down faster.

Most of the stuff before then is magic!

When it comes to all Beaver, It's usually great if you don't intend to roll it up or bend it around too much... makes a great cowboy hat, yet when it comes to the attributes I want in a soft travel hat... well Beaver breaks down too easily when manhandled on a daily basis. It can hold it's shape in the rain and elements, yet isn't really good for a soft hat.

Blending beaver with Hare and Nutria allows the felt to be pliable without breaking down too easily.

At least that's what I've seen and worn.

I started a couple threads on the quality of hats. They usually end up getting shut down. Arguements on what's right or wrong ensue and once, hatters called in complaining about what was being said about the felts they were using.

I have my own experiences with felts from many makers of felt on and off the board... I wanted to do a competition held by the Lounge comparing felts blends and details... it was scrubbed.

Anywho.. let's talk about felt quality.

 

[daizawaguy]

I started a couple threads on the quality of hats. They usually end up getting shut down. Arguements on what's right or wrong ensue and once, hatters called in complaining about what was being said about the felts they were using.

Right! Dangerous indeed...I regretted at times having started the thread... but it does seem to have turned out well in the end! [huh]