Patch placement on MA-1 jackets?

[Big J]

Hello all.
I know patch placement on WW2 era jackets has been discussed, but what do we know about patch placement on MA-1s?
I picked up some vintage and some handmade patch groupings for a SAC aircrew jacket and (I'm really excited about this) a 'Triple Nickel' member (think Steve Ritchie).
I reckon I'll get some repro jackets to put them on.

 

[Deacon211]

We might need an AF guy to chime in on the wing patch placement, but AF kind of standardized their patches after WWII to name patch on the left breast, command patch on the right (SAC, TAC, MAC, ATC) and squadron patch on the right shoulder.

What I'm less sure of as I've seen it different ways over time is whether the wing patch was placed on the left shoulder sometimes or always. I've also seen the flag on the left shoulder but I don't know what the rules are for what you put there.

Edit: Oh, I may have misread your post, but I would think that the 555 would be TAC rather than SAC.


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[Deacon211]

Also, you'd need to do a little research as to the era you are speaking of, but right about the time I switched from AFROTC to OCS (late 80s) the name patches went from rank on the patch to rank on the shoulders. I can't remember if this was in place of or in addition to shoulder rank as previously you can see shoulder rank on AF jackets.


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[Deacon211]

Actually, I had sort of forgotten the white name tape thing as well. I don't remember seeing much of this by the late 80s when I was reading everything I could get my hands on about military piloting.

I think you can also see that there is still a good bit of variation over the years, especially during the wars which always seems to bring out the notion that we have other things to worry about than patch placement. And as always, peacetime seems to bring out the rulers and patch police.

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[Big J]

Deacon, thank you for your replies. You understand perfectly why I'm so confused!
The MA-1 was issued for a long time, and regs seem to have changed several times during that period, along with the actual nature of the patches (name patches seem to have changed many times in particular).
Every photo I see almost seems to show a different way of patching these jackets (that being said, you're right, I've never seen command patches anywhere but the right chest).

I'm hoping that Atticus Finch will chip in on the subject, since I reckon he's seen a mountain of vintage nylon.

BTW Deacon, you're right, I don't think I made myself very clear at the start. I've got a SAC grouping and a TAC grouping, both Vietnam era, so I think I'll patch up a couple of replicas as soon as the wife isn't looking. The 555th gives me a good vibe, Steve Richie, Maddon, DeBellevue, Lodge and Locher to name but a few.

It might have to wait a while though, I've got a couple of G-1's here and a nice Vietnam era, theater made patch grouping for VF-111 and the Oriskany with neat cruise patch, as well as a Vietnam era theater made patch grouping for VF-96 and the Constellation.

TBH, I'd feel really uncomfortable wearing any jacket patched for anything later than Vietnam, like false valor or something. But I figure those Vietnam pilots are all like my Dad's age or older now, so it's ok. maybe.

 

[Cocker]

Here's a full load of Vietnam era L-2B jackets. Those will give you great examples on how to patch your jacket.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a255/MARKHITCOM/VN uniform/L2B_ref1.jpg

BTW, I don't think the MA-1 was widely used there, way too hot for the tropical climate. An L-2B would be far better.

 

[Deacon211]

Perhaps it might be easier to go about it the other way.

What patches do you have and what are you looking to get?

All other things aside, I think that the further you go back, the more non-standard you will find things. Flight gear also is generally gear and not a uniform so it's often less concerned with being...well, uniform.

So, what I mean is this. If you were new to a squadron, you might have the squadron patch sewn on your right sleeve. But let's say that you had been in a particularly prestigious squadron prior to getting to your new one. Depending on the command climate and how "salty" you were, you might have the old patch removed, moved to the opposite sleeve, or maybe you had the new squadron's patch sewn on the opposite sleeve. Let's say though that you went to Fighter Weapons School. Well, there are bragging rights in that patch. So, now you would probably want to wear that patch on your sleeve.

That's why I think you see a patch placed in an odd occasion once in awhile. It's not that you were feeling particularly rebellious as much as you came to the unit with patches in place. Then you just had the pararigger, whose primary job is not as a tailor, sew the new stuff on wherever you thought you could get away with it.

The nice thing about all this is that you can always get the patches generally correct and no one can accuse you of being too terribly far off!


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[jkingrph]

Being former AF, those Officers are "out of uniform" by not having jackets zipped up. I once got chastised by a senior officer for not having my field jacket fully snapped up. We were waiting outdoors on transportation for deployment to Desert Storm. It was late Jan in north Louisiana, so cool and misty. We all needed something more than just the BDU uniform and it was honestly too warm for the field jackets to be fully closed, per regulations which to this day I find rather unreasonable.

 

[Deacon211]

Being former AF, those Officers are "out of uniform" by not having jackets zipped up. I once got chastised by a senior officer for not having my field jacket fully snapped up. We were waiting outdoors on transportation for deployment to Desert Storm. It was late Jan in north Louisiana, so cool and misty. We all needed something more than just the BDU uniform and it was honestly too warm for the field jackets to be fully closed, per regulations which to this day I find rather unreasonable.

LOL, yep we were told that as well. You either zip it up or take it off.

Perhaps to illustrate a point, I got told that a lot as a lieutenant, less as a captain, little as a major and not at all as a lieutenant colonel. Same thing with patches, the more senior you are, the less crap you take for wearing something a little off the mark...within reason.

I think you might also see the difference in pictures between active duty (who tended to be more strict about such things) and Guard and Reserve...who's unofficial motto was "Hey, I already quit once..." :-D

Now I'm not speaking of dress uniforms, even service dress, which you always were expected to wear properly.

But flight gear always seemed to be just enough outside of being a uniform to invite a little...imagination.

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[Stand By]

I have a bunch of Buzz Rickson's catalogues and they always have appropriately patched up MA-1s and L-2s etc etc and they change each them year. They'd be a good resource for placement.

 

[thor]

Can you imagine anyone telling Chuck Yeager to get his hand out of his pocket or to square away his MA-1 zipper?!?! :-0

 

[Big J]

I have a bunch of Buzz Rickson's catalogues and they always have appropriately patched up MA-1s and L-2s etc etc and they change each them year. They'd be a good resource for placement.

Mmmm, that could be interesting.
Could you post a couple of pics?

 

[Big J]

Here's a full load of Vietnam era L-2B jackets. Those will give you great examples on how to patch your jacket.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a255/MARKHITCOM/VN uniform/L2B_ref1.jpg

BTW, I don't think the MA-1 was widely used there, way too hot for the tropical climate. An L-2B would be far better.

Thanks for the link!
You are right, MA-1s are going to be too hot for SE Asia, but they are way more iconic that the L-2 IMHO.
I'm not looking to replicate a Vietnam jacket, but rather that era.

 

[Big J]

Deacon, all good points!
I'll post a pic as soon as I find my B-52 squadron patch. I've got no idea where it is right now, I think my wife's sisters kids have been playing in my closet.

 

[Cocker]

Thanks for the link!
You are right, MA-1s are going to be too hot for SE Asia, but they are way more iconic that the L-2 IMHO.
I'm not looking to replicate a Vietnam jacket, but rather that era.

Totally agree with you on the iconic status of the MA-1! Would be interesting to see the patches you've got on hands.

Another few links:

http://www.thirdlooks.com/wp-content/Images/FEB13/ma-1-history-1.jpeg
https://jetpilotoverseas.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/254083.jpg
https://jetpilotoverseas.wordpress.com/category/ma-1/

I do like the "early" ma-1 look, with big patches, and white name tapes.

 

[Big J]

Totally agree with you on the iconic status of the MA-1! Would be interesting to see the patches you've got on hands.

Another few links:

http://www.thirdlooks.com/wp-content/Images/FEB13/ma-1-history-1.jpeg
https://jetpilotoverseas.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/254083.jpg
https://jetpilotoverseas.wordpress.com/category/ma-1/

I do like the "early" ma-1 look, with big patches, and white name tapes.

Thank you for those links! I'd totally forgotten Jet Pilot Overseas- a great reference resource! Patches are all over the place! Only name patches consistently placed.

 

[Big J]

Can you imagine anyone telling Chuck Yeager to get his hand out of his pocket or to square away his MA-1 zipper?!?! :-0

No I can't!
I'd just want to say 'Hey Chuck, you got any Beemans?'

 

[Deacon211]

It's funny that you should say that.

I remember reading, perhaps in the book "Hell Bent for Leather", the author specifically addressing the fact that old Chuck, icon though he was, would probably never wear his A-2 to Pancho's like he did in The Right Stuff... It was against regs.

You know J, I got to think that if you couldn't find a pic of say Ritchie or Debellvue in their MA-1s, you might find a pic of 555 or some other fighter squadron from the period and model your jacket after it.

It might not be patterned exactly as one of these guys would have worn it. But it would be at least "period representative".

Alternately, you could always write the Air Force Museum and ask for their help. I'm sure they have both the historians and a truckload of squadron pictures never released.




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[Cocker]

Check this out!

http://dogfighthistory.be/Dogfighthistory/Robin_Olds_files/9__$!@!__inconnu.jpg

Not flight jackets, but the patches on the flight suit may give a good idea about the placements used:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...s_100th_combat_mission_over_North_Vietnam.JPG
http://www.edwards.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/090220-F-1234P-012.jpg

Another pilots of the same era, with MA-1 or L-2B:

http://e.standard.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/max_800/stories/2012/03/11/122943-123615.jpg
http://blog.eastmanleather.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/afw001025.jpg

 

[Stand By]

Mmmm, that could be interesting.
Could you post a couple of pics?

As I said, the Buzz catalogues feature plain MA-1's every year plus a patched-up version - and each year the patched version changes (so they're limited editions of a sort - available until they sell out, then that's the end of that run), so picking up the catalogues is always good for reference for people like us around here. Some appeal more than others … and below is just a quick Google search of "Buzz Ricksons + MA-1 + rakuten".
You'll see the red Scorpion MA-1 that was in one of their catalogues for just one year - now all gone. But it's a beauty. And I once had a very interesting chat with Charles at HPA about that original jacket !!! If you ever call him, ask him about it. He knows his king-fu when it comes to jackets.
I also included a nice blue L2-A as it looks cool and very "The Hunters". Like I said - just a quick search - you can spend hours tracking down the variants.
I must have half a dozen past catalogues and think they're well worth getting if you have the chance to pick them up.


http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/qs-gate/item/br13109/
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/qs-gate/item/br11539/
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/rocky-house/item/br11538-01/
http://www.gmo-toku.jp/item/7307183...LINECREWMAN"3rd+AERO+RESCUE+RCVR.+GP.+』BR131/
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/earthmarket/item/br11738/
http://shop.plaza.rakuten.co.jp/auc-swat/diary/detail/201310020000
http://migwetch.jp/?pid=17101223
http://www.amazon.co.jp/バズリクソンズ-BUZZ-RICKSONS・フライトジャケット・MA-1・パッチモデル-TAC-FTR-SQ-BR13109/dp/B00MDD65XS
http://item.rakuten.co.jp/auc-cream-r/br11541scorpion/
http://www.buyers-express.com/buzzricksons/7672.html
http://store.shopping.yahoo.co.jp/hinoya-ameyoko/br13110.html