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Patch placement on MA-1 jackets?
- Thread starter Big J
- Start date
The book sounds interesting! I'll see if I can order a copy.
Yep, it would be great to hook up with Dick and get enough of the facts straight to write up a Wikipedia page for him. Hell, the guy was flying in Vietnam for like 9 years, I think. He must have a whole book in him!
I've seen Duke Cunningham on TV a few times, but watching History channels Dogfights series, where you see Ritchie, and all these other great guys like Dick talking about thier experiences really brought it home to me how these guys are getting on, and thier stories need to be remembered.
I guess because the Vietnam war was so extensively videoed and photographed, we think that it is well recorded and close in terms of history.
But the fact is that these vets and thier amazing stories are at risk of being forgotten outside of Fighter Weapons School.
This is kind of why I really love the whole patched jackets thing, I never see myself as imitating them, but paying tribute. When I was a kid, there was something awe-inspiringly magical about stories of WW2 pilots, and when I hear these Vietnam era pilots talking, I get that same feeling. I'm a grown up now, and have a jaded, cynical view of the world, but these guys make me feel like a kid again, and I wish I could thank them for that.
That 111 jacket looks amazing!
Digging the font too, Stand By!
Love the idea J and exactly what I was talking about. If someone can wear a team jersey or a jacket as a tribute, I don't see what's wrong with wearing a tribute A-2 or G-1 if it's done respectfully. If your intentions are honorable, I don't think anyone should tell you otherwise.
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Digging the font too, Stand By!
Love the idea J and exactly what I was talking about. If someone can wear a team jersey or a jacket as a tribute, I don't see what's wrong with wearing a tribute A-2 or G-1 if it's done respectfully. If your intentions are honorable, I don't think anyone should tell you otherwise.
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I couldn't agree more.
And I can't imagine being trained to fly these beautiful jet bombers and being so proud of what I do and feel the value in my service - and then, for political expediency, to be ordered to fly down the same flight corridor with NO deviations and at the same low-level height to hit the same target that was on the agenda before - and the VC are both expecting and waiting for me with SAMs and AA, just as they did the day before … and God help anyone if you're shot down. And still to do it … my God. That's brave.
For sure, that's a bad gig. I don't do stress very well, I'd have come apart like a jigsaw puzzle in those conditions.
Here's the pic I like for my Showtime 100 jacket;
Biggles88a
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Showtime 100
Biggles88a
I am sorry to say that I was there once. Randy Cunningham had released his book "FOX TWO" and I read it when my uncle brought it home from a Kiwanis event. I was impressed and since I was in San Diego at the time I went and met Mr. Cunningham at his home in 1991. He signed an autographed picture with Bill Driscoll and himself with "Markus - expect you to win your wings. Train like you fight - Fight like you train!" That was a mantra that has stayed with me until this day. The respect for Mr. Cunningham I am afraid has not because of how he has developed as a person. So, personally, I feel a sharp pain whenever I see SHOWTIME 100 because it represents the best and worst of a childhood hero. Reminding me that all heroes are still humans. And I know I am doing Billy Driscoll wrong because he still is that hero sitting in ST 100. Anything as an homage on a jacket would involve Ted Williams for myself. I am sorry if I gave a bad vibe about a picture that represents just one moment in a war or a long life.
Biggles88a
I hear you Biggles. Ted's story is another magic one. The days of real heroes seems to be in the past.
I think that Dukes story is an interesting one; he is a hero, he did really fly that F-4. In fiction, that would be the end of it, but in real life it doesn't end, you have to go on living, and that's the part that doesn't 'fit' our culture of heroism.
Some heroes like John Glenn go on to become bigger heroes. Some like Duke get involved in scandal just like 'normal' people do, and the vast majority spend the rest of thier days in anonnimity, passing away in care homes, unnoticed by society.
The 'culture' of heroism doesn't really respect our heroes much after the act itself. Maybe this is why some big cultural heroes end up going down self-destructive paths?
I don't know, but IMHO, I think that our culture kind of attempts to freeze these heroes in time for the rest of thier lives, which is an unrealistic goal, and unfair to them. And then they are made disposable when the next hero is made.
I think that Dukes story is an interesting one; he is a hero, he did really fly that F-4. In fiction, that would be the end of it, but in real life it doesn't end, you have to go on living, and that's the part that doesn't 'fit' our culture of heroism.
Some heroes like John Glenn go on to become bigger heroes. Some like Duke get involved in scandal just like 'normal' people do, and the vast majority spend the rest of thier days in anonnimity, passing away in care homes, unnoticed by society.
The 'culture' of heroism doesn't really respect our heroes much after the act itself. Maybe this is why some big cultural heroes end up going down self-destructive paths?
I don't know, but IMHO, I think that our culture kind of attempts to freeze these heroes in time for the rest of thier lives, which is an unrealistic goal, and unfair to them. And then they are made disposable when the next hero is made.
Well, they do say we should never meet our heroes …
But in defence, I also think that it takes a certain kind of person to do what Randy Cunningham - and others like him - all did and not everyone can be a nice guy to boot. It takes all sorts. I can't speak to Randy Cunningham as this is the first time I've ever heard of him …
But I mean, I saw that a biography came out about Douglas Bader (he of the Battle of Britain fame who led squadrons of RAF fighters as he shot down the enemy and he had metal legs, was shot down over enemy-occupied Europe and was captured by the nazis and held in Colditz and kept on escaping to the point that the Germans took his legs away, and upon liberation, he wanted - begged - his superiors to fly again and have "one last crack" at the Germans. Request denied as he was considered too valuable) and he's clearly an inspiration to disabled people anywhere that no legs needn't be a disability - and was a national hero.
But this biography said he was a very brusque character, a wife-beater and drank too much which made him an unpleasant and volatile drunk.
Is that true?
I have no idea as I refused to buy the book. I felt it was churlish to write a book and disparage a man's reputation when he's not alive to defend himself … but even IF it was true, so what? A man needs something to drive him into the jaws of death and still do his duty - and if that happens to be anger and bitterness for him, so be it.
IF it is true, would I have liked to have served beneath him and have liked him as a person? No, as I'm a nice guy and I only like nice people, but it wouldn't have stopped me from respecting the hell out of him - and that respect would have had me following him into battle, glad he was on my side.
But in defence, I also think that it takes a certain kind of person to do what Randy Cunningham - and others like him - all did and not everyone can be a nice guy to boot. It takes all sorts. I can't speak to Randy Cunningham as this is the first time I've ever heard of him …
But I mean, I saw that a biography came out about Douglas Bader (he of the Battle of Britain fame who led squadrons of RAF fighters as he shot down the enemy and he had metal legs, was shot down over enemy-occupied Europe and was captured by the nazis and held in Colditz and kept on escaping to the point that the Germans took his legs away, and upon liberation, he wanted - begged - his superiors to fly again and have "one last crack" at the Germans. Request denied as he was considered too valuable) and he's clearly an inspiration to disabled people anywhere that no legs needn't be a disability - and was a national hero.
But this biography said he was a very brusque character, a wife-beater and drank too much which made him an unpleasant and volatile drunk.
Is that true?
I have no idea as I refused to buy the book. I felt it was churlish to write a book and disparage a man's reputation when he's not alive to defend himself … but even IF it was true, so what? A man needs something to drive him into the jaws of death and still do his duty - and if that happens to be anger and bitterness for him, so be it.
IF it is true, would I have liked to have served beneath him and have liked him as a person? No, as I'm a nice guy and I only like nice people, but it wouldn't have stopped me from respecting the hell out of him - and that respect would have had me following him into battle, glad he was on my side.
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I get your point Stand By.
I think it's this thing where someone does something amazing and becomes a hero, and then is held to impossible standards.
For example, Duke Cunningham is a hero because he did what he did and was a real man not a cartoon character. Since he's a real man, he's just as flawed as any of us. What makes him a hero (IMHO) is that despite being just like any of us, he still stepped up and did something amazing at that moment. It's a test of character I will never have to face. He faced it and passed. That's enough for me to respect him. Why does it seem acceptable to then hold him to higher standards and expectations than (say) me, for the rest of his life?
To give you another example, I see Duke's case as the exact opposite of someone like (for example) Otto Skorzeny the SS commando. Otto performed some amazing acts of heroic soldiering during the war, and yet, he was a committed nazi. This fact means that his bravery is eclipsed by the other terrible things he is responsible for contributing to IMO, making me unable to see him as a hero despite the instances in which he acted heroically. It's the inverse of how I see Cunningham.
Duke was a normal guy who did an amazing thing, and was held to unrealistic standards.
Otto was a morally despicable guy, who did some amazing things, and wasn't held to any standards.
I think it's this thing where someone does something amazing and becomes a hero, and then is held to impossible standards.
For example, Duke Cunningham is a hero because he did what he did and was a real man not a cartoon character. Since he's a real man, he's just as flawed as any of us. What makes him a hero (IMHO) is that despite being just like any of us, he still stepped up and did something amazing at that moment. It's a test of character I will never have to face. He faced it and passed. That's enough for me to respect him. Why does it seem acceptable to then hold him to higher standards and expectations than (say) me, for the rest of his life?
To give you another example, I see Duke's case as the exact opposite of someone like (for example) Otto Skorzeny the SS commando. Otto performed some amazing acts of heroic soldiering during the war, and yet, he was a committed nazi. This fact means that his bravery is eclipsed by the other terrible things he is responsible for contributing to IMO, making me unable to see him as a hero despite the instances in which he acted heroically. It's the inverse of how I see Cunningham.
Duke was a normal guy who did an amazing thing, and was held to unrealistic standards.
Otto was a morally despicable guy, who did some amazing things, and wasn't held to any standards.
Yep, all great points, Big J (and you've given me someone new to look up! Never heard of this Otto fella either!).
It's a mixed up, messed up, shook up world alright.
But at least there are places like this where these heroic people can be brought to light and considered amid intelligent and educational thought and are debated sensibly - meanwhile the rest of the world seems to focus on the latest APP that makes your ass look smaller.
It's a mixed up, messed up, shook up world alright.
But at least there are places like this where these heroic people can be brought to light and considered amid intelligent and educational thought and are debated sensibly - meanwhile the rest of the world seems to focus on the latest APP that makes your ass look smaller.
I find it interesting how we all find out about the similar things we're so interested in…
For instance, this would be how I'd learn about Showtime 100, through a good kit review of the aircraft on a model building forum. And in the replies, someone pipes up about Cunningham's misdeeds. Oh dear. I had NO idea. Okay, that's terrible!
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234927326-showtime-100-hasegawa-f4j/
And here's another kit that has a nice bit of background on the dogfight …
I include it incase you do attempt the artwork, Big J - it's a good reference on the details.
http://hyperscale.com/features/2002/f4jshowtime100da_1.htm
For instance, this would be how I'd learn about Showtime 100, through a good kit review of the aircraft on a model building forum. And in the replies, someone pipes up about Cunningham's misdeeds. Oh dear. I had NO idea. Okay, that's terrible!
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234927326-showtime-100-hasegawa-f4j/
And here's another kit that has a nice bit of background on the dogfight …
I include it incase you do attempt the artwork, Big J - it's a good reference on the details.
http://hyperscale.com/features/2002/f4jshowtime100da_1.htm
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nick123
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Model planes! I built my fair share as a kid. Never very well though. Most of them had short flights to the nearest wall when I gave up in frustration. That's an entirely other awesome hobby though. I still think they need to make 1:8 scale A-2 jacket kits.
Model planes! Awesome!
I haven't built one in like, 30 years? (stopped when I discovered girls). Sometimes I wander around the hobby store and check out some of the awesome kits on sale these days. I'm really impressed by all the new moulds that have proper panel lines, and Japanese speciality companies are making fantastic etched metal details for interiors and landing gear. I think this is spurred by the huge number of 'born-again modelers'; guys who were kids before video games, and are retiring now and have the time and the money.
It's kind of cool. I was checking out a massive F-4 kit the other day, and realized that between car rebuilds, teenagers and dog, it was never going to happen.
I quite like the idea of getting some of those new gen foam RC planes and annoying the neighbors (USN F-4 v's MiG 17!), but the wife would veto it (which is pot and kettle, because she bought herself one of those drones she can control from her iPhone).
I haven't built one in like, 30 years? (stopped when I discovered girls). Sometimes I wander around the hobby store and check out some of the awesome kits on sale these days. I'm really impressed by all the new moulds that have proper panel lines, and Japanese speciality companies are making fantastic etched metal details for interiors and landing gear. I think this is spurred by the huge number of 'born-again modelers'; guys who were kids before video games, and are retiring now and have the time and the money.
It's kind of cool. I was checking out a massive F-4 kit the other day, and realized that between car rebuilds, teenagers and dog, it was never going to happen.
I quite like the idea of getting some of those new gen foam RC planes and annoying the neighbors (USN F-4 v's MiG 17!), but the wife would veto it (which is pot and kettle, because she bought herself one of those drones she can control from her iPhone).
nick123
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A nice, less time consuming alternative a a pre-built model rocket. No better way to get your new jacket looking a little beat up than getting some of that sulfuric smelling exhaust on you from a launch. They have some really cool variants too. Ones that have a glider that detaches mid air! If I remember correctly, the "engines" (ok, essentially gunpowder) are labeled as A, B, C, D and onwards based on how high they'll take the rocket. I think you can get a D at a hobby store that'll go up to somewhere around 1,000 feet.
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My wife would never ok that!
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