Rising felt prices

[tonyb]

Besdor Steven (and others) has given fair warning that fur felt hat prices are soon to go up, on account of escalating material costs to the manufacturers.
I assume that Stetson et al (is it still called Hatco?) and Bailey and Biltmore manufacture their own bodies, and that the custom hatters rely on Winchester to supply their bodies.
Who else is making felt bodies? And who supplies the raw material? I assume that the rabbit felts come from farm-raised critters, and that beaver felt is courtesy of animals trapped in the wild, which goes some way toward explaining why the latter costs so much more than the former. Is that right?
How 'bout those Portugese bodies I've heard good things about? And those Eastern European ones? Is it reasonable to assume that the world's fur hat body manufacturing capacity is but a small fraction of what it was 60 or more years ago?
Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[jeboat]

Felt prices going up

It seems like nothing ever gets cheaper so felt prices have only one way to go and that is up, up, up! Both Fedora and Art Fawcett have had to raise their prices recently even though the hats they make are still great bargains.

I understand from Fedora's posts that the prices are being driven by the ever increasing demand in China, where else?

As to the source of fur for felt, Europe eats a lot of rabbit much like we eat a lot of chicken. Also, the European hare has pretty good fur. As for beaver, i think it comes mostly from Canada, at least the best fur does.

Correct me Fedora or whoever if I am wrong.

jeboat

 

[besdor]

Biltmore does not make their own bodies nor does Bailey. Stetson has their own body plant in Texas but has to purchase the raw fur in Europe as does everybody else who wants the good fur. Since there is only a finite amount of fur available every year the increase of the demand by the Chinese for the clothing industry has caused the prices for raw fur to go up by as much as 50% .
Who is to blame ? Every moron who thought is was a good idea 15 years ago to move all of the production of clothing to China. Now it's too late. The Chinese have taken over production of about 75% of the clothing made today . Those who thought it was a good idea to save a liitle in the beginning are going to pay the price now.

Steven
www.bencrafthats.com

 

[tonyb]

So where do Biltmore and Bailey get their bodies? From a single source, or more than that? And who, in your opinion, makes the best bodies? Or is there a good answer to that question?

 

[redavis001]

I used to live a mile form the Hatco factory in Garland Texas they have a great on site store with rock bottom prices. As well as a shaper (is that the right term?) on staff at all times. He is a really nice guy and loves to answer questions.

Davis

 

[reetpleat]

Who is to blame ? Every moron who thought is was a good idea 15 years ago to move all of the production of clothing to China. Now it's too late. The Chinese have taken over production of about 75% of the clothing made today . Those who thought it was a good idea to save a liitle in the beginning are going to pay the price now.


While I am not so free trade, or in favor of outsourcing to poor countries, I am not so sure you are correct. Wouldn't the rrice go up wherever you are, if the raw materials go up? And if they were still here, surely prices would rise due to higher wages being paid.

I do wonder. Are the chinese becoming modern enough to have a rising middle and upper class tha wants fine goods, but still "unmodern" enough to still be into wearing hats? Is that why the demand is so strong.

But wouldn't a country like CHina be able to both produce the raw materials and felt on their own. Or is their local production not good enough qualty for the wealthy?

WHo knows?

 

[reetpleat]

I have seen a lot of hat shops in Mexico. I did buy one there once, but it was a straw. I remember seeing a felt. I didn't know much at the time, but could tell it was low quality.

Any decent hats manufactured there.

They make great shoes in certain cities. I recently had a pair of Emco shoes made in Mexico. They were too big, but they were sweet spectators. Nothing too fancy, but classic wingtips with white leather. Pretty well made.

A google search says that this company is sold through Amway. Anyone got a lead on Amway products. I never thought I would ask such a thing.

 

[feltfan]

It seems like nothing ever gets cheaper so felt prices have only one way to go and that is up, up, up!

Except the Staten Island Ferry!

 

[Joel Tunnah]

Actually, I see a lot of things with "Made in Vietnam" lables now.

As China industrializes, becomes more "western" and modernizes, their labor costs will rise - and production will eventually shift to less developed countries. The same thing happened here 50 years ago.

 

[Bruce A. Fulmer]

Although India and China are expanding rapidly in manufacturing and technology, this affects only an extremely small percentage of their population. Products requiring hand labor have an infinite source of cheap labor, and thus should be immune from demand-pull labor price increases.
Currency fluctuations however might affect prices, with pressure being applied to the Chinese to let their currency float upward (higher priced hats).
A recent Booknotes author described the very large percentage of the Indian population who have never made a phone call, even though there are more than 100 million cell phones in India.

 

[Art Fawcett]

There is a great deal of truth in what Besdor is saying Reetpleat. No, they don't have the capacity to create their own fur market at this point, and the supply & demand theory applies here. They might, at some point, create their own fur industry to pick up the slack but economics have to make that happen, not wishes. Like many other industries, when the price gets high enough it becomes an attractive option to gear up & fill the demand, thus lowering prices again by having more supply than demand. Another factor will be the fashion industry. If fur is stopped being used there, it will return to the hat industry.
TonyB, there are several countries producing hat bodies and I have examined every one as an option for my own business. I have found them lacking in one form or another but mostly in quality of product. Argentina produces bodies but getting the "good ones" is pretty tough. We experimented with them a few years ago and what we were sent was their seconds and frankly I was embarrassed FOR them. I don't think they understood that we would only accept the best quality & had to ship all but 1 doz back.
Columbia makes them also but again, getting the good ones was a chore. The Portugese? They are excellent bodies from one of the oldest companies in the world making them. They in fact supply the raw fur to Winchester, however, when I had them in my hands last year and was contemplating using them, there was just something in the feel that I didn't like. Not very scientific I know, but a hat has to have a certain "feel" to me and it fealt cheap, even their pure beaver. They pre finish most of their bodies and that's something that put me off also.
Tonak...ugggg. This Chec company produces what in my experience and opinion is the poorest quality body in the world. If this were the only company making them anymore I would pump gas.. Let me relate a story.
I was sent a two Tonak bodies in long plush from a regular client and asked to make a hat for himself and one for his wife. I don't normally do this but I cannot say no to this client out of respect so I proceded to make them. Since I "wet block" my hats the first thing I have to do is soak them in plain hot water. When I put the black body under the faucet my hands and sink IMMEDIATELY turned purple from the black dye running out. I'm not talking about a few minutes, I'm talking microseconds!!! Needless to say, I refused to sign these hats nor would I put my liner in one, although I DID finish them. My recommendation to my client was "don't wear it even if it's misting"
In summary, Winchester, in my opinion, makes the finest hat bodies, period. And, as a bonus, it's an American company that speaks and understands english, doesn't outsource, and the manager answers the phone when you call. What more could one ask?

 

[tonyb]

Thanks, Art.
Anyone know who supplies Bailey and Biltmore, though? Is it possible that another hat manufacturer supplies the competition with bodies? Doesn't seem likely, unless that manufacturer determined that the greatest growth potential in the industry is in Western hats and therefore decided to let the other guys duke it out over the relatively small dress hat trade. Nah.
So the question remains: Who is geared up to provide the volume of hat bodies required by every domestic and Canadian manufacturer save Hatco (or Hat Brands, or whatever they're called these days)? Where, oh where, do they get their bodies? It's important because no matter the quality of the craftmanship and other materials, a hat made from a lousy body is a lousy hat. No?

 

[tonyb]

And another thing ...

So Winchester gets its raw material (fur) from that old Portugese firm. But where do the Portugese get it? Canada for beaver, maybe? Europe for rabbit?

 

[Barry]

For further reading...

"The World Market for Felt Hats and Felt Headgear Made from Hat Bodies, Hoods, or Plateaux: A 2007 Global Trade Perspective."

From the abstract:

"After the worldwide summary in Chapter 2 of both imports and exports, Chapter 3 details the exports of felt hats and felt headgear made from hat bodies, hoods, or plateaux, for each individual country. Chapter 4 does the same, but for imports of felt hats and felt headgear made from hat bodies, hoods, or plateaux for all countries in the world. In all cases, the total dollar volume and percentage share values by major trading partner are provided. Combined, Chapters 3 and 4 present the complete picture for imports and exports of felt hats and felt headgear made from hat bodies, hoods, or plateaux to and from all major countries in the world. "

Icon Group International, Inc.
September 28, 2006

 

[besdor]

I'm sorry about those bodies Art. You know that your very special customer loves his hats and wanted something different . Unfortunately, Tonak is the only one left that makes the special finishes besides the guy in Sovenia and his quality is worse!!





Steven
www.bencrafthats.com
n

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I understand from Fedora's posts that the prices are being driven by the ever increasing demand in China, where else?

How history repeats itself. More than 200 years ago, it was China's insatiable demand for beaver pelts that made the Astors a rich family.

.

 

[jpdesign]

The average pay in china for a semi-skilled laborer has quadrupled in the past four to five years. My family runs a sheet metal plant servicing the hightech industry. Their main competition is now chine, rather than other use plants. the cost of raw metal has doubled in the past two years do to the chinese buying everything anyone will sell them. China's industrial revolution is effecting every type of manufacturing, not just clothing. Some companies are starting to see the problems with having their products made overseeas. Dell for one have started bringing some of its manufacturing back to the us and mexico. This is do to the fact that when you run out of parts and need replacements fast when your shipment is on a boat in the middle of the pacific you can either just wait, or pay for more to be made and then ship by air, which is very costly. Also, one company that has worked with my family business builds racks of phone switching equipment. With some of their parts made in China they were having as many as 1000 parts a day that were unusable. That was about 20-25%. U.S. manufacturing, at least for these types of parts, tends to have a drop-out rate of 5-10%. Then they had to send the parts back to china to be repaired. They started having my families business repair the damaged parts because, though it cost a bit more, they didn't have to ship back and fourth.

Jimmy