Sizing of Orchard A-2s

[DustyUSAF]

Gentlemen,

I have seen a couple of '92 Orchards on eBay lately, but have never actually seen one or tried one on. Can anybody let me know how their sizes compare to say a Saddlery or Avirex? For examle, I need a 40R in an Avirex/Cockpit jacket and a 42R in Saddlery. Just curious how the Orchards compare. Thanks.

 

[HackerF15E]

Are they real issue, or the current-production Orchards that are using the same tag as the 1992 production jackets?

By my recollection, when a bunch of people over on VLJ purchased some of the current-production jackets, they had to order them large to get a good fit

Here's a quote from one of the threads over there:

The size 46 is smaller than ELC's size 44. The best fit probably go 2 sizes up! Yep. The size 52 was about equal to size 48 Cooper and Star.

 

[DustyUSAF]

Wow, didn't know they were doing that. Other than the tag I don't know how to tell the difference. Here's an example of one I found though.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-2-flight-jacket-/290658034950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ac91a506

 

[HackerF15E]

I have to guess that is NOT a 1992 USAF-issue jacket, mostly based on the fact that it only has the nametag piece of velcro on it -- issue jackets have velcro on both sides of the breast. Additionally, it has an inside pocket, which I do not believe was on the government contracts at that time (they ARE on the post-98 Avirex and Cockpit USA USAF-issue jackets). The liner also looks like it has a bit of a shine to it, and the issue jackets have a cotton liner.

That being said, it could very well be a USAF-issue jacket that has had the other piece of velcro removed and the pocket was an aftermarket Pop's Leather-type addition that the initial owner put in it. I can't be 100% certain just looking at those photos.

None of that is to say that it isn't a good jacket. Again, reports from the VLJ crowd that bought a bunch a couple years ago felt that they were "pretty good" budget jackets (which is actually an immense compliment, considering the types of brand/design snobbery that exists around some of the jacket enthusiast neighborhoods).

 

[GoodTimesGone]

I own two of the '92 issue Orchards, both in size 42. I would say they fit pretty much true to tag size. I wear size 40 or 42 in jackets with 42 being ideal. Both of mine have cotton linings with an inside pocket. They have velcro receivers for the name/rank and command patch. The goatskin is very grainy and heavier than Cooper or Avirex. In fact one of them is so heavy I can wear it in colder weather than my other a-2s can handle. I used to own one with the shiny liner but I sold it. The differences I saw were that it had blousier sleeves and the collar sat up higher, which I didn't care for since it dug into my chin when I was flying. The DLA number is the same for both except the cotton lining issue version has an "A" at the end. Hope this helps.
_______________________________________________________________
Tom

 

[regius]

My A2 collection (limited, so far)
Orchard russet deluxe lambskin, apparently this is a special type of lambskin, very thin but durable, not like the average fashion lamb or the currently mass produced antique French lambskin that's thick but breaks down in time.
Cockpit civilian
Avirex defense issue
Orchard 92 issue with both chest patch receivers (not shown)
Willies & Geiger (manufactured by Orchard)

 

[Atticus Finch]

The issued Orchard actually does have an inside pocket. It also has a thicker, brownish cotton oxford lining...and has a command patch receiver on the right chest. Finally, the issued Orchards were very dark seal brown. As dark as the 1998 Avirex A-2s. The Orchard is on the right.

As to sizing, the one Orchard A-2 I have is about the same as my Saddlery and Avirex jackets...but I also have an Orchard G-1 which is sized way smaller than any of my other G-1s.

AF

 

[regius]

guys,what do you think of this ebay seller, the seller's location is Singapore and they carry this nice selection of Korea made A2, looks pretty on the photos though.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/360331560224?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

[HackerF15E]

Thanks, Atticus -- I was hoping you'd chime in, since you probably have the best knowledge on modern A-2s for comparison between brands. I did not know about the inside pocket, though. Learn somethin' new every day!

 

[DustyUSAF]

Thanks gentlemen for the discussion. I would ask you to revisit the link above, as the seller posted some more pics of the jacket, per my request. He told me that it did come with velcro on the right chest, but he removed it. You can easily see in the picture where it was removed. The problem then is, is it easy to get that velcro put back on? I thought the velcro was sewn on before the lining was put in? I don't really like the way the jacket looks on this guy, but if I can pick this up for $75 and all I have to do is sew some velcro on, I think it would be worth a gamble. Thoughts?

 

[HackerF15E]

I think it would be worth the gamble at that price, definitely.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I think it is worth seventy five bucks, but I'm not 100% sure its an issued jacket. Orchard pocket flaps are normally long, but the pocket flaps on the ebay jacket look very long, and the lining is suspicious...it is too dark and shiney. Then again, maybe its just the photo.

This is a issued Orchard. I wish I had a better picture of my jacket's tag and lining.

AF

 

[Atticus Finch]

...and I just thought of this...my jacket is a big-boy size 46. The e-bay jacket is a size 42. Maybe the pocket flaps on my jacket just look smaller because my gut and ass are also size 46.

BTW, if you do score an issued Orchard (Branded Leather, actually), I think you will find that it is cut more along the lines of a WWII A-2 as opposed to the baggy cut of the modern issued Avirex and Saddlery jackets. It will have higher, more comfortable arm holes and a trimmer fit.

AF

 

[regius]

Question about what exactly is a WW2 fit?????
I own a 38 historical A2 horsehide, mark 31 (correct me if im wrong, can't bother to verify). my chest is 40, I wear 40 motorcycle jackets, my shoulder is broad but arms are long. This 38 A2 fits very nicely, sleeves are just right, no crease ups or tunneling, the only question I have about the accurate WW2 fit is really on the shoulder seams. Should the shoulder seam fall beyond the shoulder and drop down a bit, or should it recede into the shoulder joints??? From all the war movies, I can say the actors all have a rounded shoulder look.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Question about what exactly is a WW2 fit?????
I own a 38 historical A2 horsehide, mark 31 (correct me if im wrong, can't bother to verify). my chest is 40, I wear 40 motorcycle jackets, my shoulder is broad but arms are long. This 38 A2 fits very nicely, sleeves are just right, no crease ups or tunneling, the only question I have about the accurate WW2 fit is really on the shoulder seams. Should the shoulder seam fall beyond the shoulder and drop down a bit, or should it recede into the shoulder joints??? From all the war movies, I can say the actors all have a rounded shoulder look.

In spite of much discussion about this subject...mainly over on VLJ...there really isn't a "WWII fit". If you look at enough period photos, you'll soon realize that WWII A-2s fit some guys like tow sacks, and some guys like sausage skins, and most guys had jackets that fit somewhere in between.

To illustrate the depth of this debate, there was recently a thread on VLJ discussing the wisdom of buying long or short size reproduction jackets, since such sizes were not available to WWII aircrew. Presumably, to get a proper “WWII fit”, a person should only buy regular sized jackets, regardless of how tall or short he may be. He would then just learn to live with short or tunneling cuffs and perhaps an exposed beltline, because that's what WWII aircrew had to do.

When I spoke about a WWII cut, I was referring to the higher arm holes and trimmer torso of the Orchard A-2, as opposed to the baggier cuts offered by the other two current issue contractors.

AF

 

[ButteMT61]

I started a thread on vlj about this because to me, guys that nit-pick the hell out of what makes a great repro confuse me with all the custom sizing, etc. When you were in the service in WWII era, you did not get a custom jacket, unless maybe you were a General, and I don't even know if that's the case. You either got lucky and had one that fit, or were unlucky and had one that was too small or too big Goldilocks.
So, to me, if you're going to be a bit of a prick ripping on repros, you should order a "stock" size and live with it. Of course I would and could never do that. First, I'm not that uptight about "correct" beyond a reasonable point. Second, I'm not spending $1300 on a repro and have it not fit me. It was just a point of contention over some pretentious postings over the years on this "proper fit" topic.
Get one that's comfortable on you that you will enjoy and more importantly, WEAR! lol

 

[Atticus Finch]

So, to me, if you're going to be a bit of a prick ripping on repros, you should order a "stock" size and live with it. Of course I would and could never do that. First, I'm not that uptight about "correct" beyond a reasonable point. Second, I'm not spending $1300 on a repro and have it not fit me. It was just a point of contention over some pretentious postings over the years on this "proper fit" topic.
Get one that's comfortable on you that you will enjoy and more importantly, WEAR! lol

I agree. But what amazed me were the responses to your thread saying (in so many words) that perhaps it would be best to avoid buying long and short sizes...because such jackets could never provide for an authentic 1940's fit...whatever that is.

AF

 

[ButteMT61]

I agree. But what amazed me were the responses to your thread saying (in so many words) that perhaps it would be best to avoid buying long and short sizes...because such jackets could never provide for an authentic 1940's fit...whatever that is.

AF

Yup. In the end, if you want an authentic jacket, you gotta buy a vintage piece.
Everything else is just a modern interpretation - some better than others.
Life's too short. I'm not starring in a movie, or trying to replicate a soldier from 70 years ago. I just love the style, the history, and the overall feeling I get from such jackets. I imagine if we could roll back the clock, we'd see so many variations on jackets being made that all the "facts" being bandied about today would collapse under their own incorrectness. We have samples to go by - but how many out of how many jackets produced during this time? We can see pictures and get an idea of "fit" but they're all over the place. To make a jacket fit like some idealistic picture or myth seems a tad ridiculous to me. I'm not wearing a non-long version of anything, be it a shirt, tie or jacket. They simply don't fit me. So I'm not dropping $1300 for JC to make me an "authentic" jacket that doesn't fit me so I can proclaim some higher echelon of correctness. Bah humbug

 

[regius]

ButteMT, i TOTALLY agree with you, and it is comforting to know how the airmen had to deal with what's given them, that's the real deal.