Vintage fur felt, to fix or not to fix

[K.D. Lightner]

OK. I have a comment on vintage fur hats and it is not a comparative between hatters. For the record, I do have a lovely blue fedora from GH and did post photos of it in an earlier thread. It is softer than my old Borsalino, which is plenty soft and thin.

Something happened that I wanted to throw out to you fellows and see what your feelings are on this. My vintage Borsalino was a bit dowdy, someone had worn it at one time and it had a tattered brim ribbon, the wind strap was dangling and the hat needed cleaning. I took it and the Dobbs 15 hat (the one that had been styled to look like an LBJ hat) to the Hat Works store here and they cleaned the Borsalino, put in new ribbons, brim and hat band and, alas, took off the wind strap as it was stretched and battered.

The hat looks fine, but here is what I felt when I got it home: It felt like the old hat was violated. That new stuff on the body of the hat made me feel like I had somehow damaged the hat. (The Dobbs 15 looks fine, by the way, and I will send some photos).

I recall once, back in the 70's, I visited a friend who had purchased a New Hampshire farm from an elderly couple who could no longer work the farm. The barn was 180 years old, the house even older, dating back to the American Revolution. It did not have electricity or modern plumbing. We had to chop wood for heat, heat water on wood-burning stoves to take a bath, light candles or hurricane lamps for light at night, and keep perishables on ice (no problem in the wintertime).

During my visit, my friend got the house wired for electicity. For the first time in all of its 200-year existence, the house had lights. My friend celebrated that night because it meant lights and refrigerators and soon they would get flushing indoor toilets and water from a fawcet not a pump over the sink, and heat. It was the beginning of modernization -- but we all sat there and felt blue. Finally, another visitor said it: "the house has been violated, she said, by the modern world."

That is how I felt about the hat today. Am I nuts or what? Maybe I should just leave vintage things alone, like they say you should do on Antique Roadhouse. Or.....

What have your experiences been when you have had those vintage fur felt hats that needed a little work and you have had the work done?

karol

 

[Kentucky Blues]

They modernized a perfectly good old house. You, on the other hand, repaired with modern technology a perfectly damaged old hat. I think you did the right hing. Now, taking a NOS vintage lid and replacing everything with modern fixings would be insane .

 

[Art Fawcett]

Karol,
I can understand your feelings. There are times that I wished that I really didn't have to mess with them and in fact I have bought hats just to keep them in original unchanged condition. When renovating a beautiful vintage I try to always use ribbon of the era so that it doesn't feel "modern". What partly you might be experiencing is the new ribbon look. I guess it depends also n what you feel the hat is. I mean, do you look at it as a part of history? or just a good hat? If it is a part of history, then don't renovate. Once it is unusable just put it away and cherish the history behind it. I have many of this type. If you ever make it up here to the shop I'd be glad to show you some of them.
Art

 

[K.D. Lightner]

Thanks, Daryl and Art, for your feedback -- Art, I would love to visit your store someday when I get up that way. I saw photos on your website and went into a state of ecstacy looking at those hats you had on display.

It probably is the modern materials that upset me, plus the stitching was different, and the wind strap missing. It is still a lovely hat but seems less "vintage" than it was, I guess. But I felt it was getting too shabby and wanted to keep wearing it. So, I should probaby relax. I did what I did.

A weird thing happened after I posted yesterday: I went into a vintage store called Wear It Again, Sam, which is here in San Diego. I walked in and spotted a dummy head with a very familiar looking hat on it -- it was a duplicate of my lovely Borsalino, but this one was close to mint: had just a little stain on the inside liner and a few tiny "craters" on the brim. It was a shade lighter than my other Borsalino. It was exactly my size, a 7 1/8.

You bet I nabbed it -- $75 -- and I am happy to have it. Now I have my redone Borsalino and an almost-new looking one, also. So, I still have the connection with history and two lovely hats to wear and cherish.

I am concerned about those things I called "craters.What are they, really, and what causes them? Insects? They are not holes that go all the way through the hat, they do look like craters on a planet. What can I do to keep those things from appearing on my hats?

karol

 

[Matt Deckard]

I have had many vintage hats made 'too new' by hatters over the past few years. Now when I buy vintage I try my darndest to Keep it vintage. If the sweat is falling apart I'll replace it. If the ribbon is tattered I'll try to find a good replacement before I replace it, that way I am more comfortable with what is going on rather than seing what the hatter decides looks best.

I am a stickler for the original, and nowadays the only thing I am willing to have done to my vintage hats, if they need it, is a good cleaning.

 

[jamespowers]

K.D.,

I really have to say it just depends. If it is something that you want to wear and it will make you look like a "Bag Lady" LOL then it might be something that you want to get refurbished in all the ways your hat was. As long as they use good quality gros grain ribbon and other materials in the same shade as the original then the hat is fine. You have just renewed it. I am pretty sure there is a decent supply of wind trolleys around so you could have that replaced if it is bothering you.
The only problem I have is when someone makes an NOS vintage hat into something it was never meant to be. If you are saving something that will be passed on for generations then you are doing the hobby a service.
I should insert here that I have Art always supervising my renovations so they never get too far from what they were originally in materials and style. I am sure he would tell me if it were something he didn't think was quite right. In that sense, I think having an honest hatter at your disposal is essential to making you feel like you are doing what is right.
I have had some hats without liners, limp as a wilted leaf and faded as they come end up looking as good as they were when they were new. I suppose it makes me feel like I saved something from being used as a prop rather than a hat that was meant to be worn and enjoyed. I always say that if you enjoy it and it looks good on you then that is the hat for you.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Michaelson]

I love vintage. I always have, all my life, and will buy vintage over new when possible...but ONLY if it's usable. I do not purchase for the sake of nostalgia alone. If it doesn't work, can't
be repaired, or can't be used if required, I usually don't bother with it. Same goes with cars, hats, watches, guns, what ever crosses my path. Some folks collect for collecting sake. Not me. I'd not feel bad one bit about your hat renovation....it's got new lease on life, and enjoy it! High regards. Michaelson

 

[Kentucky Blues]

Those "craters" are moth bites...I don't mind them too much when they are few in number, or on the bottom of the brim. Though I'd prefer a hat not have them at all

 

[K.D. Lightner]

I think, in the future, I may go for just a cleaning. I tend to think somewhat like you do, Matt, about the vintage stuff. If a hat is too, too dowdy, and beyond repair, I just may "retire" it to my vintage collection and display it for the old hat it is and the beauty it once was. I love old things, books, buildings, clothes, cars, etc., and know that sometimes you have to update things to keep them from falling apart. The 50-year-old hat was not falling apart, just getting dowdy, and it is getting harder and harder to find those old beauties.

Had I known I was going to find a nearly mint duplicate a couple of weeks later, I probably would have left it alone. I have looked at the hat, and my other hats, and feel the hatter did a pretty good job. And, you are correct, James, I can find another wind strap (trolley) for it.

Daryl, so those are moth craters. There are only a few on the hat on the underside of the brim, and they are teeny, so won't fret, but I know I have to store or shelve those hats with something that will keep the critters at bay.

Thanks, guys, for all your suggestions and support. I value it.

karol

Photos will be forthcoming on some of my hats, the Borsalino I scored this past weekend, the Dobbs 15, which I know you saw, Art, on the ebay site. It no longer looks like an Open Road (Yech!) cowboy LBJ hat, it looks like a nice fedora -- it feels softer than it was, and that "ghost" of the Open Road pinch is gone.

I shouldn't say "yech" -- lots of folks wear the Open Road western hat. I just don't look good in any of those cattlemen-type pinches, so dislike them. They are the most popular cowboy hat. I avoid them like the plague, preferring the diamond shape cowboy hats or the old time western rounded top hats.

 

[Art Fawcett]

KD, I just need to make a slight adjustment to what KB said. The "bites" or craters are made by moth larva, not the moth itself. After laying the eggs, the only thing they can eat is the felt, leaving little craters.

 

[K.D. Lightner]

Thanks, Art

What do you all recommend to keep moths and larvae from chewing on the hats? I have used cedar blocks for my wool jackets and sweaters and have not had any chew marks on these things. Would that work with the hats or do you suggest something stronger?

Nothing smelly, I hope. I remember moth balls

I like to display my hats on a shelf but will encase them in plastic if I have to to keep the critters at bay.

karol

.

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by K.D. Lightner
Nothing smelly, I hope. I remember moth balls

Well, I hate to say this then but I use moth balls int he room I keep my hats in. I go so far as to put them in the hat boxes with the hats (they cannot come in contact with the hat the way I have them though). Cedar is good too but I do not think you are going to panel a room in it for your hats.
I have either gotten used to the smell of moth balls or they just don't smell all that much to me. :cool2: My hats usually do not pick up the moth ball odor either. In fact, they smell more like the box than the moth balls. LOL
On a shelf, you could simply put moth balls under each hat and keep them covered with a plastic cover on top. I think that should deter those dang moths and their larve---the bane of vintage apparel and accessories collectors.

Regards to all,

J

 

[The Wolf]

I HATE MOTHS! I lost anice double-breasted navy blue coat to moths. I've had hats wrapped in plastic bags that were eaten by moths. My first awful experience was when a vintage fedora I was storing was eaten so badly the brim was coming off. I checked on a grey derby I had put in a plastic bag and the hat was badly pitted.
I'll now put up with mothball smell to stop this from happening. I keep my suits in suit bags to avoid moths but I suppose I should add a deterrant.

 

[Wild Root]

Well, I don’t mind moth balls my self. They omit a strong odor at first, but to me it’s the smell of safety! Cedar works well as long as it smells. After a few months it will fade and you will need to refresh it. Sanding works, and also wetting it with water. If you have a small walk in type closet, you could get some panels to put against the walls of your closet. Cedar blocks in hat boxes are very good. But, you will have to check them ever so oft to make sure they still have their odor. Moths like the dark. I have noticed that they don’t lay eggs in lighted busy area. I left most of my collection in my closet for two years wile I served a mission for my church. I had placed cedar panels in there in hopes to protect all my vintage. Well, when I got home and opened my closet, there was cedar inside, but no smell. It had worn off over a few months after it was put in. Only had some moth damage to one suit but, it was one of my favorites. So, I had to have some reweaving done at the price of $78 bucks! So, I now use mothballs! They stay stronger for longer. Trust me, if you want to keep moths or carpet beetles out of your collection, then I say go with mothballs. The smell will stay in the closet as long as the door is shut. Throw some in and keep the door shut then you shouldn’t have much trouble. Although, if you want, you could always buy a vintage cedar chest! They’re not cheep, but they look cool, will keep your goods safe and ad a cool vintage look to any room.

Root.

 

[Michaelson]

This is a first for me. I've never heard of 'cedar' smell wearing off. The oil in the cedar is what gives off the scent, not the wood itself. I've opened 100+ year old cedar chests and bureaus, and found them to be as strong smelling as a newly made version. Interesting information.

I've also never experienced moth problems with vintage gear, and I've lived in Ohio, Florida, and Tennessee. Is this something that is common on your side of the country?

Regards. Michaelson

 

[jamespowers]

Wow Wildroot, that is a nice cedar chest. I have one something like it that is just sitting around in the garage. I think I might just have a use for it now. LOL I think I will even put moth balls in it just in case though.
Michaelson, we do have our share of moths in California. There is not a very organized effort to keep their population low like some areas in the South and East. There they spray for all kinds of insects and it just happens to keep the moth population down as a side benefit. Here in California, the idiots in Sacramento would probably make the moth the state bird if they could. LOL

Regards to all,

J

 

[Michaelson]

AH, I understand. Yep, we have a policy here in the South that pretty follows the belief regarding insect control...'kill 'em all...let God sort 'em out.' Regards. Michaelson

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by Michaelson
AH, I understand. Yep, we have a policy here in the South that pretty follows the belief regarding insect control...'kill 'em all...let God sort 'em out.' Regards. Michaelson

Now you understand why we have to live with moths.
Prevention is the best method possible. Get rid of anything around your home that might attract them. If you have a piano around then do not discount it because the piano has felt parts in it that attract moths. Put some moth balls in that piano case. You can get moth crystals in scented varieties now so you really do not have to put up with "moth ball" scent if you do not want to. Don't leave rags or towels hanging around the house either. You might bring them in with the rag.
Another idea is to plant Pyrethrum flowers in your garden around the house. Seeds are readily available from Burpees and moths hate the smell and stay away from doors and windows that have them in front of them. You could also use the cut flowers in areas where moths might decide to invade---even int he bottom of that piano.
There are also products out there for those of you who have rugs around the house that might attract them. Eulan by Bayer can be applied to rugs for prevention as can a product called Sla. Fine Oriental Rugs are usually treated with these preventatives. I do not think they should be used on hats though---totally different material. I just wonder if they would be safe on vintage clothing though. hmmm.... I will have to check.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Wild Root]

Well, I have experienced strong smelling cedar chests from the 20’s and earlier too! The reason why they still are strong is because they remain closed for very long periods of time. And, they have good seals to keep it locked in. Cedar oils will dry out given a well ventilated room and thus making the cedar odorless. That is what happened to my closet. It wasn’t sealed good enough to prevent the oils from drying out. To rejuvenate the sent, you sand it or you could use a cedar oil to bring back the strong sent.

Eucalyptus is another good plant that has a strong anti moth odor. Smells good too! JP, that chest that I pictured isn’t mine. It was one I found on ebay for sell. It’s going for only $50 and would be a great chest. Problem is shipping it to CA. Would be $$$!

Regards,

Root.

 

[Michaelson]

Understood.

Cedar trees are so common around where I live, they're as much a part of our landscape as a pine tree would probably be for you, I suppose. They grow absolutely everywhere they can get a root to grab a toehold in any crack in the ground. Tough to remove too! Regards. Michaelson