What did your grandparents pack for personal protection in the Golden Era?

[carebear]

Here's a Vintage question. It has nothing to do now with overcoats and if it is off the board topically too much, feel free to delete it.

After the modernization of the late 19th Century, in the first part of this century police and citizens in Europe and America considered themselves well-armed with what are derided as "mouseguns" today. Police carried small .32 caliber revolvers and the average city man of moderate means was probably going to regularly have on his person or in his desk a similar revolver or a small .25 or .32 caliber semi-auto.

Now those of us who carry and the police are back to hauling around stuff that would make our Austrian Hussar green with envy.

I know the sample size is going to be tiny but has anyone talked to older relatives or associates about their weapon choices at the time? grandma keep something in her muff for the tram ride home? Grandpa have something other than a watch in his vest pocket?

 

[Alan Eardley]

Force compared to pressure

When discussing penetration by a projectile, we are talking about pressure, not force. The area of the impacting face of the projectile has a direct effect on the pressure. Pressure is force applied to an area and the smaller the area (i.e. the more 'pointy') the projectile is, the higher the pressure will be for a given force.

Let us consider a metaphorical scenario. You visit a lady (let us call her Ingrid) who has an establishment in a nearby back street. Ingrid weighs 144 lbs. but has a forceful personality. She asks to remove your shirt and lie on her floor of her salon, as she puts on a pair of engineers boots, the soles and heels of which have a combined area of one square foot. She then stands on your chest and the force she applies to you equals her weight, 144 lbs. The pressure on your chest is 144 lbs. divided by the area of the pressure point (one square foot) or 144 pounds per square foot (PSF) You feel restricted and uncomfortable, but you are not in pain. Now, Ingrid goes to her boudoir and puts on a pair of stilettos, which have an area of one tenth of a square foot. She stands on your chest again and...ouch!!! You are in pain! The force is still 144 lbs., but the pressure is now 1440 PSF. If Ingrid stood back on her heels the pressure might well become 14400 PSF and that would really hurt!

Isn't that how bullets work?

 

[carebear]

Thanks Alan, that's the best illustration I've ever read.

A little before the Golden Era, but I've heard the Mongols would wear multiple layers of silk clothing in part because silk tends to give before pressure rather than tearing, apparently wrapping the arrowheads and making them easier and cleaner to remove. I've heard it said that some gunman of the old west would wear silk vests and shirts for the same reason. I can imagine it would work better against a soft lead ball/bullet than a sharp iron arrowhead.

Until Kevlar and aramid fibers there wasn't much better, unless you were built like Luca Brazzi. Not quite the fashionable waistcoat, his.

 

[binkmeisterRick]

Ingrid? Hellooooooooooooooo nurse! lol

The only thing I'm aware of in my family history is a story I heard from my late great uncle (who passed away a couple years ago at the ripe old age of 105). He was the son of a Methodist minister (he and his brothers would eventually follow suit). When he was 13, he went down to the local hardware store and purchased himself a black powder revolver. (I really wish I knew what make and model.) While showing it off to his brothers INSIDE the parsonage, the thing went off with a loud BOOM, filling the room with a cloud of gun smoke, and putting a hole in the floor. Knowing full well they'd get a good licking if their father found out, they opened all the windows and frantically started airing out the room of the smell. Lord knows how, but the man never found out. He was such a wild card in his days that it's no wonder he lived to 105 -- it took that long for Heaven to be ready for him!lol

 

[Sly Style]

Thats an easy one. I still have my grandfathers .380 colt semi-auto which was his merchant marine sidearm. Small, compact, but still provides a good punch. I am not a gun person in general, its more of a family ties issue than a gun ownership issue.

 

[John in Covina]

DEMO

Until Kevlar and aramid fibers there wasn't much better, unless you were built like Luca Brazzi. Not quite the fashionable waistcoat, his.

Until recently a 22 was still capable of penetrating most "bullet proof" vests because of the small profile it could slip between the fibers easier. FN has a crew weapon sub machine gun and pistol that is similar to a .223 specifically tasked to defeat body armour.

Has any one seen body armour demonstrated? At the SOF convention late 80's early 90's one of the makers reps would use their vest for peace officers and shoot himself with a .40 S&W! He would also put a Las Vegas phone book under the vest so he wouldn't get badly bruised. Always an ouch when he did it.

SIncerely,

 

[Archie Goodwin]

Most of my relatives who served in the military either kept their service revolvers (or purchased the exact weapon after mustering out) for the rest of their lives. I know it is cliche, but my great-grandmother kept her grandfather's civil war issue pistol until the day she died.

 

[John in Covina]

1911A1?

I do favor the 45 in the 1911A1 format, but back then other than the military using the 1911, it was seen some how that the BAD GUYS always used automatics and the good guys and police were revolver guys.

An alternative would be something in 45 long Colt, but .38 Special would have been a regular revolver round. 357 mag comes later and I think the 44 caliber smokeless are after 1930 too.

Thompson: on the side of Law & Order!

 

[undertaker]

.22 Revolver

My grandfather carried a small 6 shot .22 cal. revolver. He purchased this for the a whopping $8.50 at the local Otassco Hardware Store. I still have this little pistol although I would not feel safe carrying it in my pocket . After his death my grandmother kept it for her protection as well.
I carry a .38 S & W Model 36 Chiefs Special in Nickel Plate or a .25 Auto also nickel w\pearl grips.
Someone asked a friend of mine why a preacher would carry a gun, it was something to the effect of "don't you believe in God", to which He replied, " Yes, I carry this for them that don't"

Regards,
J.S

 

[Paisley]

My great-grandfather and his sister were playing cops and robbers in a old house. (This probably would have been c. 1880.) They were using some black powder pistols they found in the house, but thought they were toys. In the course of their play, my great-grandfather was shot point blank between the eyes. The black powder still had some charge in it.

He lost the sight in one eye and the doctors didn't remove the bullet for fear he'd lose the vision in his other eye.

 

[carebear]

My great-grandfather and his sister were playing cops and robbers in a old house. (This probably would have been c. 1880.) They were using some black powder pistols they found in the house, but thought they were toys. In the course of their play, my great-grandfather was shot point blank between the eyes. The black powder still had some charge in it.

He lost the sight in one eye and the doctors didn't remove the bullet for fear he'd lose the vision in his other eye.

Some things don't change over the years. Always a good idea to teach kids that guns aren't toys and to not touch them and go get an adult if they find one.

I'm glad he survived, for his and your sake.

 

[Mike K.]

In my line of work I spend far more time in the backcountry than on the streets, so my personal protection would be along the lines of a Rigby or Purdey double rifle, .416 to .500 Nitro Express. For light duty, I'm partial to a good .30-30 Winchester carbine. Then again, a good behemoth blaster like the one below would be pretty cool too!

 

[Paisley]

Some things don't change over the years. Always a good idea to teach kids that guns aren't toys and to not touch them and go get an adult if they find one.

And once they are older, to never, ever point a gun at anyone except to defend themselves against violence.

 

[Johnnysan]

My answer then would have been very similar to my answer now. If stopping power is an issue, a .45 Colt Commander is tough to beat. For sheer reliability - a .38 S&W Model 10. Thousands of them saw service in virtually every law enforcement agency in the United States and Canada at one time or another and lots of them went to war in the Pacific. My 5" light barrel is the best handgun that I've ever fired and it's been tested against many.

 

[dr greg]

sap

I'd be carrying a Bucheimer blackjack, and funnily enough there's one on the bay right now, but I'd get in serious trouble bringing it into this country, unfortunately.

 

[carebear]

The thread title is somewhat misleading as this was pulled from the "endless ballistics thread".

There's a couple threads already on what members themselves carry, we don't need another one.

I was curious as to stories about what our actual elders, alive in the golden era or slightly before, may have owned/carried in those "simpler" times.

It is an interesting question to me because such carry was not illegal and was commonly done, not just in the US but in Europe and worldwide. (including London!) The legislation we live under is for the most part a post-WWI invention originally intended to disarm the poor (Socialists) and minorities in order to prevent revolutionary violence. At first it was winked at if the "proper" sort of people continued in their habits.

I never had the chance to ask most of my older relatives, they weren't that kind of folks (to my knowledge). I know many Loungers have had better luck in mining those sources of information.

Paisley,

That'd be the big one right there. Never point at anything you aren't willing to shoot.

 

[Blackhorse]

Some interesting deviations from the intended topic here...be that as it may...my grandparents were reported to have taken along my uncle Aksel. I guess he must have been quite the figure of a man...and WILD!!!

 

[Michaelson]

In my family history, I had a great uncle who was the postmaster in a small town in Ohio (Wheelersburg) in the 30's who was always on the alert for robbers. During the Depression, it wasn't the least bit 'odd' for a mailman to be on his route (and this was a rural route, where they delivered mail out of their old Model A Fords) and have a vagrant step on their running board with a knife or club and rob the carrier of their mail and personal belongings when they were delivering on the back roads of the county. My great uncle carried as a standard pocket item a Colt New Service .45 long with a 6 inch barrel. A HUGE revolver by any stretch of the imagination.

On more than one occasion I've heard the story of him once driving in the middle of winter and on a long lonely stretch of road in 1933, and a vagrant jumped on his running board with the intention of robbing him. Fortunately he had the Colt laying on his lap, and stuck it in the guys face just as he stuck his head in the window. The bum dropped off the car in a panic, and right as the car was rolling across the bridge of the Little Scioto River (it's called a river, but in winter it's pretty much a wide creek), and fell clear down into the water. Uncle Ed stopped long enough to make sure the guy got up, (the water wasn't very deep that time of year), then drove on. He always ended the story with the line 'served the bas---d right to have his clothes freeze on his a-- in that cold air!:rage: '

Can you imagine what that guy thought when he hopped on that car and had a gun with the barrel the size of a sewer pipe stuck in his face!!??

Anyway, I have no clue who got that old Colt, but it's supposedly still in the possession of one of the distant cousins in the family. I'm also not sure why the big old Colts were the popular gun of my area, but they sure were, and I've heard more stories of the old union strikes and rough labor times of the 30's where everyone had one in their coat or back overall pocket!

Regards! Michaelson

 

[Viola]

I cannot recall what my granddad (who was a cab driver) carried, but his older brother, a WWII gunner who was shot down twice and lived to tell the tale was mugged as a senior citizen, when he was about seventy.

Apparently when the thug told him to give him his wallet, my great-uncle opened his coat, showed him a .45 and laconically said "Don't hurt me, please don't hurt me." and the mugger ran away.

Viola

 

[Michaelson]

Reminds me of my father-in-law who once was at a restaurant looking for change in his work coat pocket to pay for a cup of coffee. He was sitting next to a Kentucky State Trooper, and in the process of pulling out his change, laid a .22 derringer on the counter.

The Trooper looked at it, then my father-in-law, and asked 'Do you have a permit to carry that?"

My father-in-law pulled back his coat, and hanging from a shoulder holster was a Colt .357 Python revolver. He said 'Yes I do. This permits me to carry that."

The Trooper grinned, and went back to eating his breakfast.

Things were a lot easier back in the day.....lol

Regard! Michaelson