When do you ask for your money back?

[Spellflower]

In the last month, I've had the misfortune to buy two hats on ebay that have sweatbands that are as brittle as an Ak Mak cracker.

Both hats were described as being in good condition, and no mention was made of the sweat bands. However, they were not very well listed, and I admit, I knew they were a gamble. Fortunately I only spent about $60 combined.

So do I just accept the loss, or should I contact the seller and ask for a refund?

Clearly if an item's description lies, one is justified in doing this, but what about gray areas where the seller means well but ignorantly omits important information?

For your reference, here are the listings:

Wormser

Beaver Brand

 

[RBH]

Both are good looking hats, I think I would just check into getting the sweats replaced. Or maybe you could try it yourself... [I have not yet gotten the 'gumption' to try it yet!]

 

[Stoney]

Bear in mind that some sellers would not know enough to check the suppleness of the sweatband as part of the condition on the sell. These are the chances we take when buying vintage on e-bay.

Definitely replace the sweats. Those hats are not losses. Sending it out for a new sweatband is cheap. Even cheaper if you do it yourself and the first one you do is a learning process that you won't forget. The skill you gain will serve you well in years to come.

 

[bolthead]

Spellflower, 1st let me say that looking at the pics, either hat shows no sign of bad sweats. I've gotten bad misrepresentation as far as hats go on ebay before & was offered a refund. If you don't want the hats, I'd email the seller & explain the situation and see what follows. Or you can do the latter and keep them.

I do have one question for you though. I noticed that the Wormser is a size 7. I'm quite sure that's not your size, does it fit you? I might be interested in taking it off your hands perhaps? I've been lookin' to get a Wormser. [huh]

 

[Spellflower]

Bolthead, both the hats are too small for me, but I bought them because I wanted to try my hand at stretching on a hat that didn't cost too much.

I'm not sure how the seller decided that the Wormser is a size 7, as I can't find any size markings, and, obviously, I can't look under the sweat without cracking it. By my measurement, it is 21" in diameter, but the dried out sweat may have shrunk. It is definitely too small for me. PM me if you're interested.

RBH and Stoney, I don't have the gumption to replace a sweat just yet (these hats were intended to help me get the gumption to stretch one!). I do know a hatter here in Brooklyn who told me he can replace one for $15, which is very reasonable, so I might do that and then sell them here.

I really don't like the idea of having to complain to a sellers who in all likelihood didn't realize they were misrepresenting their items. But I don't want to feel like I wasted $60 either.

I guess if I get the sweats replaced and pass them on to members here I can at least feel like I saved some hats from the trash.

By the way, does anyone know if a hat can be resized a bit when replacing the sweat? It seems like if you can do it by stretching, you ought to be able to do it by putting in a slightly larger sweat, no?

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

Hey Spellflower

Nice choices, I must say.
You seem like a very nice, polite, non-confrontational type guy. That's laudible. But sometimes you can truly do a seller a favor (increasing his/her success in pleasing future customers) by letting them know they didn't do a vary good job with you.
I agree with the advice about contacting the seller via eBay email and see how they respond.
I have had a couple of hats arrive which had some minor dissappointment associated with them and I had no compunction about pointing this out. Not harshly because I knew I wasn't buying a new perfect hat, but matter-of-factly, y'know? I didn't want to return the hats (I repaired them instead) but I wanted the seller to know to be careful about not being forthcoming with details.

BTW, our size (and tastes) seem similar. We may end up battling it out over one of these gems - if we haven't already!

All the best,
Gene

 

[mingoslim]

I have to say . . .

Caveat Emptor . . .
Or something else that sounds latin and impressive

Seriously, though . . . both hats look awfully nice.
I do not think either was misrepresented, they look great.
A lot of folks, if they do nto regularly wear hats, would never think to look at the sweatband . . . and even if you do wear hats (of the modern variety) you might not think that a stiff sweat was a big deal. If they are so brittle they are falling apart . . . or are seriously cracked, perhaps you have a claim. But neither "looks" that bad in the photos.

If it were me, I would try to recondition the sweats and see if I could supple them up a bit . . .

I think you got a good deal, really . . .

 

[Stoney]

Sure you can resize when replacing a sweatband. It's the best time to do it.
Seriously, yes you can. Just have the hat re-blocked in your size before the sweatband is replaced and you can keep those swell lids for yourself rather than trying to find someone who wants them.

 

[Vintage Betty]

I buy on ebay a lot, and would feel comfortable bringing this flaw to the sellers attention.
Here's what I'd write:

Dear Seller,
Thank you for the opportunity to purchase your hat. I was hoping to obtain one of these, and appreciate you making it available.

Unfortunately, when I received it, I noticed the interior sweatband was disintegrating and unable to be used. This is very important as it makes sure the hat stays on my head.

It will cost me $6.00 to return this hat to you, and I'd prefer to keep it.

I looked around and found out that new interior sweatbands cost $15.00. I could do the labor of sewing the sweatband myself, thus saving money. Would you feel confortable refunding a portion of my money so that I could purchase a new sweatband?

Thank you for your consideration -

Vintage Betty

 

[Tango Yankee]

What Vintage Betty said.

I've recently purchased a couple of hats that, when they arrived, had issues that weren't shown or mentioned. Neither seller was knowledgeable about hats. One has a "break" in the felt in the brim. Doesn't go all the way through, but definitely something that'll have to be babied a bit to protect it. I'd purchased the hat with the idea of reselling it after cleaning and shaping. It's a size 8. I informed the seller and suggested a partial refund. He was very apologetic and immediately refunded my money, including shipping, and told me to keep the hat.

I wasn't comfortable with that--I suppose if I'd bought the hat for my own use I might have felt a little better about it, but it bothered me so I sent the seller a check to make it a partial refund.

On the other hand, I received a size 6 (advertised as a 9) Borsalino. The seller specified that the hat needed cleaning, but no tears. The sweatband (in the very limited photo that only showed the logo) appeared to have a wrinkle in it and showed some wear, but I thought it might have been due to a shim being placed inside it. When it arrived I found I was right--there were several thick pieces of cardboard tucked behind the sweat. Other than showing wear and needing some Lexol, the sweat was usable. Unfortunately, the stitching holding the sweatband to the hat was coming apart.

I suggested to the seller that it might have been something he overlooked and suggested a partial refund. He refused, told me to basically go stuff myself. I tried again, he ignored me. At this point I decided that it wasn't an innocent error and filed a dispute, this time requesting half of what I paid. (I'd have been happy with a $10 refund at first.) He again refused to deal with me, so I'll be upgrading the dispute.

On the plus side, I guess that ebay is feeling some of the effects of public reaction to their recent changes. Yesterday I received a message from them saying that they noticed that I had a dispute going and to make up for my bad experience with ebay they gave me a $100 off coupon to use later. :eusa_clap

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Spellflower]

Wow, Tom, I guess the squeaky wheel really does get the grease every now and then! I wish ebay had that policy when I was trying to get my money back from a power seller who sold junky computer bags that fall apart after a month! :rage:

Mingolism, the pics are accurate, and indeed I only discovered how brittle the sweats were when I tried to fold the first one back and it cracked . I was more cautious the second time, and examined it without damaging it.

I don't think the sellers intended to deceive me, but nonetheless, what I got is not what I expected to get based on the information in the listing. It's true that this is simply one of the well known risks of buying hats on ebay, which is why I only risked around $30 on each. It's also why I decided to pose the question of what to do to the FL community rather than simply writing the sellers and asking for my money back.

I really appreciate everyone's advice. The solutions I've heard here sound very reasonable, especially Betty's.

I think I'll write to the sellers and explain that I bought the hats with the understanding that they were in good condition, but as it turns out, it will cost $15 to get them into that condition, and I would appreciate their help in defraying that cost.

By the way, I noticed that I wrote that the Wormser has a 21" diameter, when what I meant was that it has a 21" circumference, putting it at about a size 6 3/4, two sizes smaller than what it was listed as.

Since it is so small, I doubt I'll be able to get it resized up to a 7 3/8. Instead, I'll offer it on the classifieds to anyone with a head size in range, and then get it sized to fit the buyer when I get the sweat replaced.

 

[Spellflower]

On the other hand, I received a size 6 (advertised as a 9) Borsalino....there were several thick pieces of cardboard tucked behind the sweat.

I wonder who the pinhead was that needed to stick a huge shim in a size 6 hat?!?

 

[Spellflower]

Okay, here's what I wrote. Now I'll have to wait and see.

Thank you for the opportunity to buy this hat. I was really looking forward to it, but unfortunately, when it arrived, I discovered that the interior sweat band is dried out and brittle, and will need to be replaced before I can wear it. I realize that you were probably not aware of this problem, as is not visually evident. However, since the sweat band will need to be replaced before the hat is in "mint" condition, as described in your listing, I would appreciate your help in paying for this repair. I have contacted a local hatter, and he tells me he can do the job for about $15. I would be very grateful if you would agree to refund me this amount. Alternatively, I would be willing to send the hat back to you and accept a refund.

Thanks to Vintage Betty for helping me with her excellent draft!

 

[bolthead]

Okay, here's what I wrote. Now I'll have to wait and see.

Thank you for the opportunity to buy this hat. I was really looking forward to it, but unfortunately, when it arrived, I discovered that the interior sweat band is dried out and brittle, and will need to be replaced before I can wear it. I realize that you were probably not aware of this problem, as is not visually evident. However, since the sweat band will need to be replaced before the hat is in "mint" condition, as described in your listing, I would appreciate your help in paying for this repair. I have contacted a local hatter, and he tells me he can do the job for about $15. I would be very grateful if you would agree to refund me this amount. Alternatively, I would be willing to send the hat back to you and accept a refund.

Thanks to Vintage Betty for helping me with her excellent draft!

Sounds fair to me.....:eusa_clap

 

[Spellflower]

I just received an email from Hatter Who Must Not Be Named regarding these hats:

I think that is not a beaver brand but a Beaver hat brand. The wormser looks much nicer.

It's true, the Beaver simply says "Beaver Hats," with the motto, "Always a Standard of Quality." I assumed it was the same as Beaver Brand, but does anyone (who's aloud to post) know this company? Duane?

The two hats are remarkably comparable in both style and quality. Both have a very narrow binding that matches the one inch ribbon. They're both pretty soft to the touch, and easily shaped without moisture. The Wormser feels a bit stiffer in the brim.

 

[Spellflower]

I just heard back from the sellers. The Wormser seller offered to pay half the cost, and the Beaver seller offered to let me return the hat.

After considering the math, I realized that sending the Beaver back will mean losing about $17. I think this money is better spent on getting a new sweat. Oh well.

As for the Wormser, with any luck I'll get it up to Bolthead's size.

It would have been nice if they had sprung for the full repair cost, but as the saying goes, "You pays your money and you takes your chances."

 

[Andykev]

It isn't a great hat, but it is a great price

In my experience with buying around 75 hats, many on Ebay, from 5+ years ago...you have gotten two nice hats for a fair price. I recommend you leave it alone. I have said it before, "as long as the felt body hasn't been soiled or eaten by moths, everything else is replaceable".

I have a friend who ALWAYS replaces the sweat, no matter the condition. Something about wearing a "used hat someone else had on their head" type of thing.

Most (or many) sellers finding a hat in some closet do not know a thing about them. They look on Ebay, see what others are selling for, similar shape, color, etc...and they list it with very little specific information.

You couldn't have gotten nicer hats for that price at a local second hand shop or Goodwill store.

Enjoy. Besides, I bought all the great hats 5 years ago off of Ebaylol lol

 

[Spellflower]

Yeah, for under $45, it's not bad. The felt is actually pretty good, and it will definitely make a serviceable substitute for those days that I don't want to go out with a C-Note on top of my head.

 

[Justdog]

Refund

In the last month, I've had the misfortune to buy two hats on ebay that have sweatbands that are as brittle as an Ak Mak cracker.

Both hats were described as being in good condition, and no mention was made of the sweat bands. However, they were not very well listed, and I admit, I knew they were a gamble. Fortunately I only spent about $60 combined.

So do I just accept the loss, or should I contact the seller and ask for a refund?

Clearly if an item's description lies, one is justified in doing this, but what about gray areas where the seller means well but ignorantly omits important information?

For your reference, here are the listings:

Wormser

Beaver Brand

Hi:

Have you entertained treatment for the band or a replacement.
Personally I think you got a pretty good deal on the Wormser.

 

[Tango Yankee]

I wonder who the pinhead was that needed to stick a huge shim in a size 6 hat?!?

Ah... sorry about that! :eusa_doh: The tag is in European sizing. US size is a 7 3/8.

Cheers,
Tom