Alexander Leathers Simmons and Aero Aeromarine Discussion

[schitzo]

Yes Sloan, there are some originals knocking about

MM, as requested I have marked your words (in a mental note on my imaginary fridge) and if you're still here in a years' time I'm gonna pop up and remind us all of just how wrong you were!


At AL I met Sandy, and the first thing you notice about him is his positivity and enthusiasm. If you didn't know anything about the dude or his latest project you'd probably wonder 'What's this guy got to be so happy about?' But we do know a little bit so we can take an educated guess. As is known already, he has a new business that makes leather jackets. So let us consider:


1) Who has he found to make his jackets and what are their credentials?
2) What leather has he got?


The lounge knows already that he has 12 out of 14 ex aero employees. So in effect, AL are the 'new aero'. Am I wrong?

But since you lot maybe don't know what leathers they have - and it's hard to keep up - allow me to tell you about what I saw. They have a huge range sourced from all over the world. And they are, relentlessly it would seem, seeking out more and more options. This mob are not playing they are clearly super ambitious. I don't wanna read like an advert for an AL - I'm not affiliated - but the constant nay-saying, as well as the overt and covert slander is irritating me. It's getting old and it doesn't seem to be going away. So basically MM et al you're forcing it out of me! Allow me to reel off a few of the options that impressed me most on my visit:

Oil pull tan steer - comes from Turkey, it's heavy, characterful and looks awesome. I don't see a better option in tan atm (Also available in 2 browns and 1 black).
Russet buffalo - don't know where this comes from but it's heavyweight stuff and tough as old boots - as you'd expect. It comes with all the natural scarring and looks great for it. Some of it is more reddy russet some of it is a more orangey russet - all of it with a lovely grain.
Kudu - 3 types, which are black, dark brown and light brown. Super heavyweight stuff and in the flesh it looks and feels incredible. This is the light brown
http://www.alexanderleathers.com/vintageclassics/dakota.html
Black goat - Quality grain and very nice weight. I didn't see aero seal goat but I'd choose this one over their russet and black/blue levis stuff
Horween chrome tanned steer in 3 colours, on it's way now - which means.. drum roll please.. they are dealing with Horween! So.. hmm.. I wonder if Horween, who are in the business of tanning and selling FQHH might get round to supplying them some of that too?

I also saw one or two that are either in very limited supply or are simply no longer available. This would be the shiny black Norwegian horse (only a bit left apparently) and the old grease tan which is gone forever (I think that's right). There is just one jacket in that grease tan and take my word for it it's a beauty. Hard to describe it well, but I'd say it has that 'vintage' look going on for sure, and what an exquisite colour - lighter than orange; that is in my mind exactly as I'd want tan to be. The oil pull tan is heavier but aesthetically this one cannot be beaten. Had it fitted me I would have jumped on it. I believe this is the jacket I'm on about: http://www.alexanderleathers.com/sale/dakota-old-grease-tan.html
but it doesn't look like that! Those pictures seriously don't even tell half the story - perhaps if you ask nicely someone there might take you some better ones - and if they would I'd ask for a few snaps of the collar.



Unfortunately
In the unpleasant climate that's been created on these pages by a few characters people are now going to wonder if I'm some sort of AL shill - which of course I'm not. I'm just a dude who has visited both factories with an open mind. And if we think this through - AL don't even comment on here - it should be obvious that they aren't interested in that particular avenue.

I now have orders with AL and aero and I'll be paying the full amount for all of them. If anyone would like to question that do feel free to pipe up and I'll happily scan my bank statements (with the important numbers blocked out of course) and upload them here to shut you up.


A final word
I can add here that as a leather jacket fetishist I was, inevitably, impressed with what I saw at the aero factory too - and if anyone wants to hear about that part of my trip, then fine. It just seems like that side of the story is already very well covered - but if there's an audience for them I am of course happy to share my thoughts and impressions of the latest models. Or about anything else you might wanna ask. And even if there isn't, I'll probably spill anyway!


Yours truly
Schitz

 

[Edward]

From my very limited understanding of the situation (which may very well wrong and please feel free to correct me) but didn't a whole bunch of Aero employees leave and go to AL?

If that is the case then the very people who actually made the jackets a year or so ago at Aero are the very same people making the jackets now at AL....

Just seems that a lot of people here who haven't even seen an AL jacket in person are saying a lot of stuff about the quality when in reality the only difference may very well be the label inside...how many people own an Aero they love that was actually made by someone now working at AL? Does that diminish its quality or value?

I don't ecall seeing any criticism of their workmanship in terms of the materials used, or their manufacture. Many in these parts do not care for their design work, which appears limited to what look like direct copies of style popularised by Aero, and slightly clumsy variations on other well-known styles (see the awkward shirt-style collar on the leather Trialmaster-style jacket). The oddest thing I've seen on their website myself is a Donkey Jacket - not something I had the impression there was much of a market for these days, especially not at that price (traditionally these were cheap jackets bought cheap for rough use, most often by coalmen). It's obvious AL are shooting for Aero's market (I'm sure I read in one of these threads somewhere that Sandy Alexander had formerly tried to buy Aero?). Whether they succeed, time will tell.

 

[majormajor]

So basically MM et al you're forcing it out of me!

:scared:

 

[Sir Jacket]

The Dakota is certainly growing on me.

SJ

 

[schitzo]

. Many in these parts do not care for their design work, which appears limited to what look like direct copies of style popularised by Aero, .

Edward, it sounds like you're saying aero copied those designs first so they have first copiers' rights.

So in effect - were they interested in appeasing you and the others you refer to - AL ought to dig out some other old vintage designs to copy; ones that haven't already been copied by Aero. And they should cease copying designs that aero copied first. Then you'd see things in a different light, correct?

 

[jlanderson]

Schitzo, thanks for your information regarding your trip to the AL factory and description of their hides. Most interesting.

But I would like to respond to the comments about the division on the forum between the two camps with my personal experience.

Last summer -- late July I think, after falling victim to Mark Moye and being made whole by Aero, I ordered a second jacket from them.

I was in contact with two people in the Aero office about the jacket order. Two people who intentionally misled me on numerous occasions. I requested a specific color of FQHH, which I was told they were out of with no idea when a new order would be placed, and directed to a hide from an old order still laying about the factory. I was told the jacket would be ready in 10 weeks; I wrote to inquire as to the ship date and was told another month, putting it in mid-November. And we all know what transpired in the meantime.

When new management took over at Aero, I found out several things: the hide I originally requested was in plentiful stock and always had been, the jacket specs had never been entered into the system -- the jacket was not even in production when I inquired earlier. In less than two months, the jacket, in the hide I originally requested, arrived.

I guess the upshot is that I feel as though I was intentionally misled on numerous occasions by folks who are at the new company. I have no idea why, but I'll never do business with that firm. Trust, once destroyed, is impossible to rebuild.

 

[LeFonque]

I look at it this way two companies selling quality leather jackets.
Who wins .... We all do.

I looked at the two jacket in question.

I don't think we are comparing apples with apples.

I like them both. I will not buy either. Mainly because they are not my style but I am happy to have a choice.

 

[Otter]

We are risking a downwards spiral back to the old "thread that cannot be named". Why dont we try and keep to the meat of the thread, discussing the relative pros and cons of the two similar jackets before someone comes and mods all over the thread.

 

[Edward]

Edward, it sounds like you're saying aero copied those designs first so they have first copiers' rights.

No, not at all. Once the rights in the original designs were exhausted, it is open to anyone who wishes to copy them. New rights would exist in the patterns created in order to do so, but not in the design of the jacket itself. I.e. If I made a pattern from a vintage jacket, then you later decided to do a copy of the same jacket, you would be well within your rights to copy the jacket I did, but not my patterns - you'd have to run some up of your own. I've got no issue with more than one company's right to copy the same vintage jacket....

So in effect - were they interested in appeasing you and the others you refer to - AL ought to dig out some other old vintage designs to copy; ones that haven't already been copied by Aero. And they should cease copying designs that aero copied first. Then you'd see things is a different light, correct?

it just seems a shame that AL instead of developing something different and finding their own niche have gone with such a similar range. As has been pointed out, that's where their employees' prior experience is, and there is already a clear market for the Highwayman and other models, so I can certainly see the business sense in what they are doing. After all, they're there to make money, they aren't doing this for fun. It's just a shame to my way of thinking that with a new layer in the market we're not seeing new stuff being available. To be fair - and it's all subjective opinion anyhow - I'm not exactly impressed with their other designs, but that is personal taste - others seem quite happy with them. I'm just not sure why they don't bring back the Stuart, as Aero pulled it from their line when Lauder left, and Holly has made explicitly clear that they consider that design to belong to him. When it was first announced that Will Lauder was leaving Aero to do his own thing, I had hoped that he was going off to produce something along those lines.

All personal preference at the end of the day - ymmv, naturally.

 

[simonc]

I know that the Pope once set Leonardo and Michelangelo to work on the entrance to a church, they painted one side each, as he knew they would do their best work together.

 

[Worf]

The only things that got reeled in were posts that were WAY off base, and not constructive at all. Additionally, we were crapping all over Charlie's original thread and getting off the original topic. Alexander hasn't emailed me about the posts, and I don't expect them to. If I were subject to the whims and requests of vendors, I'd be shutting it all down instead of funneling it to this new thread. The object is to keep the discussion on target, and provide fair criticism, regardless of the vendor. We do this irrespective of the vendor or industry, be it hats, jackets, shoes, suits, dresses, or makeup. Oh, with one minor exception --we won't allow talk of Gladhatter.

Having been on a great many forums over the years they seem to vary between total, absolute anarchy where everything and anything is allowed in the name of "free speech" and something this side of Orwell's "1984" where the mere hint of something untoward brings out the dreaded "ban hammer". I must say that this site is great. The mod's here are present, active, fairly even handed and are neither "quick on the draw" nor "asleep at the wheel". I commend you all.

Worf

 

[hpalapdog]

The oddest thing I've seen on their website myself is a Donkey Jacket - not something I had the impression there was much of a market for these days, especially not at that price (traditionally these were cheap jackets bought cheap for rough use, most often by coalmen).

I've seen Tony Blair wearing a Donkey jacket when he visited his constituency office. He obviously thought it gave him working class credentials !
Problem is most of them on the market use ghastly vinyl shoulders and not leather. There's certainly a market amongst students etc. for proper ones.

BTW. Aero used to make them.

 

[schitzo]

Edward re: designs and their merits

Having looked at jackets in person and tried them on - at both companies - I have completely changed my mind about a number of them. Jackets that I never would have even considered based on the websites alone have in fact totally won me over in the flesh. 2 such examples include the Cropduster and Spiegal. Looking at the pics I didn't like the pockets on either but having tried them on the fit and feel is fantastic, and those pockets, when wearing them, make total sense. Any changes imposed on either jacket by me would worsen it and of that there is no doubt in my mind. Both are great designs

I think each of us is an amateur designer (we can all think about how we'd 'improve' a jacket) but the reality is we're better off simply putting our faith in the hands of the professionals (at both companies ) who, without question (whatever anyone on here says to the contrary) know what they are doing!

Of these vintage designs there is something for everyone. The task is to find a pattern (or two) that flatters your own body type, rather than to seek out jackets you like the look of. I know that isn't easy or straightforward, but if you approach the process with an open mind and a blank canvass as your starting point that'll work to your advantage

 

[LeFonque]

I've seen Tony Blair wearing a Donkey jacket when he visited his constituency office. He obviously thought it gave him working class credentials !
Problem is most of them on the market use ghastly vinyl shoulders and not leather. There's certainly a market amongst students etc. for proper ones.

BTW. Aero used to make them.

I have not seen a decent Donkey Jacket in the flesh (figurative not literally) for years.

 

[Edward]

I've seen Tony Blair wearing a Donkey jacket when he visited his constituency office. He obviously thought it gave him working class credentials !

Mn. Less said about that the better....

Problem is most of them on the market use ghastly vinyl shoulders and not leather. There's certainly a market amongst students etc. for proper ones.

BTW. Aero used to make them.

Eep. Can't imagine why... I'm sure the quality is very nice and everything but it seems very odd to me that anyone would spend that kind of money on what was by design a rough workwear jacket, intended for rough work - vinyl, leather or no. Thinking about it, quite honestly I don't think I've seen one since the Eighties, around about the time we last had a coal delivery. [huh]

Edward re: designs and their merits

Having looked at jackets in person and tried them on - at both companies - I have completely changed my mind about a number of them. Jackets that I never would have even considered based on the websites alone have in fact totally won me over in the flesh. 2 such examples include the Cropduster and Spiegal. Looking at the pics I didn't like the pockets on either but having tried them on the fit and feel is fantastic, and those pockets, when wearing them, make total sense. Any changes imposed on either jacket by me would worsen it and of that there is no doubt in my mind. Both are great designs

Certainly a jacket in the flesh can look very different in person. I took a risk on my Highwayman (an Apprentice made model - flawless, at half the regular price). Never cared for the look of them in photos before, too boxy, but I actually really like mine in person. It's a keeper.

 

[LeFonque]

I know that the Pope once set Leonardo and Michelangelo to work on the entrance to a church, they painted one side each, as he knew they would do their best work together.

Not many people know that! In best Michael Caine accent.

 

[cordwangler]

it seems very odd to me that anyone would spend that kind of money on what was by design a rough workwear jacket, intended for rough work

People spending large sums on repro workwear originally intended for rough work? :eeek: Well, it happens. (See countless aghast FL responses to price of denim, etc.)

 

[hpalapdog]

I would describe most of the AL designs as being generic rather than replicas of originals.

This is a 1930s style motorcycle jacket made of 'Norwegian' horse

 

[hpalapdog]

People spending large sums on repro workwear originally intended for rough work? :eeek: Well, it happens. (See countless aghast FL responses to price of denim, etc.)

The like of Ralph Lauren have become billionaires out of it !

 

[Edward]

People spending large sums on repro workwear originally intended for rough work? :eeek: Well, it happens. (See countless aghast FL responses to price of denim, etc.)

Heh.... Yeah.... A2s, selvedge jeans.... but surely you have to draw the line somewhere? I mean.... donkey jackets??? Funny old world.