Boot makers with the best leather selection and clicking?

[cbez]

The comparison between factory made japanese boots and hand made Indonesian boots where the leather is hand cut and then the boots are hand lasted, hand welted and the outsoles are hand stitched is like comparing apples and oranges.

The amount of labor and expertise required for making a pair of factory made boots is about a tenth of what required of making a truly hand made pair of boots.
Even clinch that cost almost three times as much as briselblack are not hand lasted and the outsoles are not hand stitched.

Not everyone care about these things but they require a LOT of time and experience to make

You'd be surprised how much overlap there is in terms of construction. They're both using sewing machines, hand cutting leather etc. not like japan has boot robots.

 

[Tomalf]

You'd be surprised how much overlap there is in terms of construction. They're both using sewing machines, hand cutting leather etc. not like japan has boot robots.

They have clicking machines to cut out the upper leather, lasting machines that last the uppers, canvas ribbs that they glue and then use goodyear welting machines to sew on the welt and outsole stitchers that stitch on the outsoles.
Not all japanese makers use all of those machines but briselblack for example uses non.
I think hand welting and outsole stitching is a qualitative difference

 

[AeroFan_07]

If you actually use them for work I totally get it but if you buy them for the aesthetics (like me) I don't see much difference with dress shoes.
(But I might be biased because I make shoes as a hobby so I really know and appreciate the work that goes into making truly handmade pair)

(But I might be biased because I make shoes as a hobby so I really know and appreciate the work that goes into making truly handmade pair)

This is cool! Why don't you just make a pair of Engineer boots?

 

[Tomalf]

(But I might be biased because I make shoes as a hobby so I really know and appreciate the work that goes into making truly handmade pair)

This is cool! Why don't you just make a pair of Engineer boots?

You can't really find a good off the shelf engineers boot last and last making is a whole different field

 

[philli]

The comparison between factory made japanese boots and hand made Indonesian boots where the leather is hand cut and then the boots are hand lasted, hand welted and the outsoles are hand stitched is like comparing apples and oranges.

The amount of labor and expertise required for making a pair of factory made boots is about a tenth of what required of making a truly hand made pair of boots.
Even clinch that cost almost three times as much as briselblack are not hand lasted and the outsoles are not hand stitched.

Not everyone care about these things but they require a LOT of time and experience to make

I agree with that point but still at that price point, they should not be using sub-optimal parts of the hide. Im not speaking to briselblack specifically but makers who choose to either intentionally use the less optimal parts of the hide or just skip that quality check altogether.

And in the realm of hand cut, hand lasted, hand welted boots which requires such a high level of skill, why skimp on leather selection? Just raise the prices accordingly if need be. Customers are expecting a certain level of quality if they have gone down this path of ordering hand made boots. Maybe people who order high fashion boots don't care to this degree but many in this space definitely care more than your average person which is why we are willing to spend an amount that many won't even fathom spending for a pair of boots.

 

[philli]

I have one pair of FP boots that I bought second hand. I still paid a lot of money, and I still am on the fence how to rate them. I sure don´t wear them regularly.

I echo all that has been said. Incredible craftmanship for sure, especially as concerns the sole-construction. They are wearable in a way, but sometimes I think they are more a testament of what is possible than something that is really fit for everyday use.

I like to compare FP to "Schuh Bertl" out of Munich. Also a one-man operation (beware of his web presence; he does outsource most of his popular-demand" stuff to Spain now.).
His boots are about as sturdy as FP. If the later resemble 1:1 boot-models carved out of marble, a Schuh-Bertl Boot seems to be made from wood. Yet his boots are incredibly comfortable from the first second. He somehow manages to translate a totally rigid outer construction into a an immensly pleasing tactile experience for the feet.

which boots did you order from him? just curious

 

[TacoBael]

The comparison between factory made japanese boots and hand made Indonesian boots where the leather is hand cut and then the boots are hand lasted, hand welted and the outsoles are hand stitched is like comparing apples and oranges.

The amount of labor and expertise required for making a pair of factory made boots is about a tenth of what required of making a truly hand made pair of boots.
Even clinch that cost almost three times as much as briselblack are not hand lasted and the outsoles are not hand stitched.

Not everyone care about these things but they require a LOT of time and experience to make

Clinch boots are hand lasted and hand welted. The outsole is stitched on with a Landis stitching machine, which nearly every “handmade” bootmaker uses. They also hand select hides and click all their leather by hand. Other Japanese makers like rolling dub trio and zerrows which were brought up in this thread do most of this but use the Goodyear machine welting method, which has a arguably nominal difference in quality from hand welting.

Briselblack, flame panda, role club and most Indonesian makers use the same set of processes as Clinch; hide selection, hand clicking, machine upper stitching, hand lasting, hand welting, machine outsole stitching. Virtually no makers hand sew outsoles onto boots. Welting and outer stitching are two different processes.

 

[Tomalf]

Clinch boots are hand lasted and hand welted. The outsole is stitched on with a Landis stitching machine, which nearly every “handmade” bootmaker uses. They also hand select hides and click all their leather by hand. Other Japanese makers like rolling dub trio and zerrows which were brought up in this thread do most of this but use the Goodyear machine welting method, which has a arguably nominal difference in quality from hand welting.

Briselblack, flame panda, role club and most Indonesian makers use the same set of processes as Clinch; hide selection, hand clicking, machine upper stitching, hand lasting, hand welting, machine outsole stitching. Virtually no makers hand sew outsoles onto boots. Welting and outer stitching are two different processes.

I can't speak to every indo maker but I know for a fact (and they have a LOT of reels showcasing this on ig) that most of the well known ones exclusively hand stitch the outsoles (briselblack, sagara, fortis, midas/winson, kiattoko, jakkrabbits etc).

Goodyear welting with a canvas rib is objectively mush worst than handwelting.
The canvas rib that the welt is sewn to in goodyear welting is being hold on exclusively by glue and after a while most are separated from the outsole.

I must have gotten confused with clinch, they are really mostly hand made

 

[Tomalf]

I agree with that point but still at that price point, they should not be using sub-optimal parts of the hide. Im not speaking to briselblack specifically but makers who choose to either intentionally use the less optimal parts of the hide or just skip that quality check altogether.

And in the realm of hand cut, hand lasted, hand welted boots which requires such a high level of skill, why skimp on leather selection? Just raise the prices accordingly if need be. Customers are expecting a certain level of quality if they have gone down this path of ordering hand made boots. Maybe people who order high fashion boots don't care to this degree but many in this space definitely care more than your average person which is why we are willing to spend an amount that many won't even fathom spending for a pair of boots.

I agree. Briselblack especially raised their prices in recent years to a point I think good clicking is a must (I think they do a good job bit not always perfect).

For other lower price indo makers selective clicking without raising the prices significantly is impossible, the cost of imported leathers and materials is already well over 50% of the price and the shipping cost to the us that is included in the price is about 60$-70$ so it leaves a really small profit margin

 

[MrProper]

I can't speak to every indo maker but I know for a fact (and they have a LOT of reels showcasing this on ig) that most of the well known ones exclusively hand stitch the outsoles (briselblack, sagara, fortis, midas/winson, kiattoko, jakkrabbits etc).

Goodyear welting with a canvas rib is objectively mush worst than handwelting.
The canvas rib that the welt is sewn to in goodyear welting is being hold on exclusively by glue and after a while most are separated from the outsole.

I must have gotten confused with clinch, they are really mostly hand made

I'm asking this as someone who has no idea.
Is completely handmade really always better?
I would say no. Consistent quality has certainly improved with the use of machines. Just think of sewing machines, which ensure consistent thread tension, deliver uniform stitching, etc. Not that an artist can't do that too, but is it better? And I'd rather wait three months for something than 27 months just because it's hand-sewn.
At least for me personally, whether it's handmade or machine-made is only a psychological factor. Of course, the brain plays a role in this, and even if I had two absolutely identical products, one made by hand and one made by machine, I would still value the handmade one more. Completely irrational ;-)
Objectively speaking, it shouldn't make any difference.

 

[Tomalf]

I'm asking this as someone who has no idea.
Is completely handmade really always better?
I would say no. Consistent quality has certainly improved with the use of machines. Just think of sewing machines, which ensure consistent thread tension, deliver uniform stitching, etc. Not that an artist can't do that too, but is it better? And I'd rather wait three months for something than 27 months just because it's hand-sewn.
At least for me personally, whether it's handmade or machine-made is only a psychological factor. Of course, the brain plays a role in this, and even if I had two absolutely identical products, one made by hand and one made by machine, I would still value the handmade one more. Completely irrational ;-)
Objectively speaking, it shouldn't make any difference.

First of all 27 months is WAY too long to wait for a pair of boots, especially when it's not even mtm.

I agree that using machines for some parts doesn't hinder and even improve the quality in some cases (clicking machines, skiving bells for skiving the uppers, sanding drums for finishing, sewing machine for the uppers) but doing some parts by hand is objectively better.

Hand lasting allows you to have much more shapely lasts and work with much thicker leathers, hand welting is a much stronger construction method in comparison to goodyear welting because the welt and the uppers are sewn directly to the insole instead of being sewn to a glued on canvas rib and hand stitching the outsoles stitching allows you to have much higher spi and use saddle stitch which is a much stronger stitch than the lockstitch used in sole stitchers.

You don't need any of the above to have a great pair of boots and in some cases you don't really need it (hand lasting in particular) but I think there still is a qualitative difference even if the diminishing returns hit hard over 500$

 

[MrProper]

Thanks for the explanation. Under certain assumptions, I can understand that (the questions would then be, for example, do you need infinitely thick leather on boots, except for special purposes, or when is strong strong enough).

hand stitching the outsoles stitching allows you to have much higher spi and use saddle stitch which is a much stronger stitch than the lockstitch used in sole stitchers.

I used to have shoes with sewn-on outsoles. The stitching wore through in record time, but of course the sole still held because it was glued and not just held by the stitching. So why use high spi and saddle stitch if it's going to wear through quickly anyway?
I don't want to badmouth it, and I think if you just view it as a work of art and a collector's item, then it's fine.
And as you write in conclusion, none of this is really necessary. But then neither are leather jackets So somehow it all has its justification.
As I said, these are just assumptions made by someone who has no clue.

 

[ABCD]

Is completely handmade really always better?

Here's an interesting article about the perceived benefits of handwelting.

https://www.lovablebrogue.com/post/what-is-a-handwelted-shoe-and-is-it-worth-the-money

TL;DR

"Overall I'd compare the benefit of HW shoes to buying a mechanical watch over a quartz one. An externally similar end product, but one which might bring you as the owner - and presumably a bit of an enthusiast - some specific, hard-to-define sense of satisfaction that's a key component of any hobby. "

I think that some of the boutique makers apply handwelting not because it's better but because they lack the economies of scale to acquire a Goodyear welt stitching machine.

hand welting is a much stronger construction method in comparison to goodyear welting because the welt and the uppers are sewn directly to the insole instead of being sewn to a glued on canvas rib and hand stitching the outsoles stitching allows you to have much higher spi and use saddle stitch which is a much stronger stitch than the lockstitch used in sole stitchers.

I think the advantages of hand welting and hand stitching are mostly theoretical. In practice, shoes do not fall apart because they were stitched by a machine.

 

[MrProper]

Thanks

TL;DR

"Overall I'd compare the benefit of HW shoes to buying a mechanical watch over a quartz one. An externally similar end product, but one which might bring you as the owner - and presumably a bit of an enthusiast - some specific, hard-to-define sense of satisfaction that's a key component of any hobby.

That's exactly what I meant with my clumsy wording.

 

[Harris HTM]

As someone who owns more than three dozens of goodyear welted shoes and boots and only two pairs of handwelted oxfords (vass shoes) the main difference I find is indeed the flexibility of the soles as my vass are out of the box quite more flexible than my already broken in crockett n jones, carmina or aldens.

 

[Tomalf]

Here's an interesting article about the perceived benefits of handwelting.

https://www.lovablebrogue.com/post/what-is-a-handwelted-shoe-and-is-it-worth-the-money

TL;DR

"Overall I'd compare the benefit of HW shoes to buying a mechanical watch over a quartz one. An externally similar end product, but one which might bring you as the owner - and presumably a bit of an enthusiast - some specific, hard-to-define sense of satisfaction that's a key component of any hobby. "

I think that some of the boutique makers apply handwelting not because it's better but because they lack the economies of scale to acquire a Goodyear welt stitching machine.



I think the advantages of hand welting and hand stitching are mostly theoretical. In practice, shoes do not fall apart because they were stitched by a machine.

The machine stitching in goodyear welting is not really the problem, the problem is the glued on canvas rib that is sewn onto.
Some companies use channeled insoles with the goodyear welting machine and then the difference is much smaller.

I think the comparison to mechanical vs quartz is incorrect because hand welting/lasting/outsole stitching does have objective advantages(when done correctly) where quartz is the technically superior option in addition to being the economical choice

 

[Tom71]

which boots did you order from him? just curious

These Moc Toes. I bought it from the original owner.

 

[philli]

Those are some nice looking moc toe boots. Honestly it’s a shame that his lead time is so stupidly long cause I really love his monkey boots. Ive looked at monkey boots from other makers and none of them look quite as good. His last shape works really well with monkey boots. Sagara cordmaster is a close second I suppose.

 

[cbez]

the issue is not just the lead time itself but ****py communication with customers when you have their money and have blown far past the production times you gave them.

 

[philli]

Yes that too. Some level of transparency could alleviate that tbh. I think some people are even fine waited 2 years if that expectation was set.

My assumption is that he wants to keep his order book stacked and doesn’t want to turn away customers. So he takes more than what he can handle. For someone who has made boots for so long there’s no way he doesn’t know what his capacity is.