Then vs. Now....

monbla256 · Oct 27, 2010

JimWagner said:
50 years ago I would have been 13 years old. My grandfather and uncles wore hat though my Dad did not. I don't recall ever touching one of their hats. Even if I had I wouldn't have been doing so with the idea of checking out its feel or "hand". At 13 I wouldn't have known a good hat from a great hat - or cared much. The point is, it would be kind of tough to find anyone old enough to have any reliable experience with hats during that time period, let alone before that.

Now, that said, I have a Stetson that I bought off eBay last year that dates back to the 50's and had never really been worn. It was still in its original box and immaculate. Not a moth divot. Not a stain. Looked brand new. It's a nice hat. It's in better condition than my Stetson Open Road that I bought in the early 80's and worn a lot.

But I can't really tell any quality difference between the two. If anything, the older hat is stiffer. I sort of remember the Open Road being stiffer when I got it new, but back then it was just a hat and I wouldn't have even known what the term "hand" meant.

So, for me I don't really see much if any quality difference between my Stetson from the 50's, my Open Road from the 80's and my Moose River from the 90's. I haven't bought a (fur felt) Stetson recently, though.

As far as softness and hand go, as well as general quality, the Akubra Camp Draft I bought earlier this year beats any of my Stetsons. I have a few other Akubras that, while really nice hats, are just as stiff as the Stetsons and of comparable quality.

For me the bottom line is that hats vary even within a brand and all you can really say is that a great hat is where you find it. I just wish they were easier to find.

Jim I couldn't have put it better !!! ".... a graet hat is where you find it" PERIOD

Old or new doesn't matter

Brad Bowers · Oct 27, 2010

Mulceber said:
If gtdean48 and I are thinking of the same process, it's not aging in the sense that you age fine wine (ie. by just leaving it in a cellar for years), but instead it was a process of chemical and/or physical treatment (not sure which) that would make the hat more weather resistant, less prone to shrinkage and go a long way toward killing the felt. He's wrong though to say that no one does it anymore: Adventurebilt Hat Co. does. -M

No special process, just a matter of setting aside the hat bodies for a while. In the case of C&K, they did age their felts for up to six months in a special climate-controlled room to give the hat bodies time to finish felting.

Brad

Mulceber · Oct 27, 2010

Guess we're not thinking of the same process then. Oh well, it's interesting anyway to learn about that part of the process. -M

gtdean48 · Oct 27, 2010

Tomasso said:
How long would they age them?

I know I read about Stetson having felt blanks in basement vaults for a year to let the "felting" continue before finishing into hats...

Mobile Vulgus · Oct 27, 2010

Salty made a great, great point that I don't think enough people are considering (not just about hats but everything we buy).

Salty: "In other words, a $10 hat was about a day's pay for the average working stiff, more if you consider after-tax wages."

Now the median household income for Americans today is $46,000 per year (depending on where you look up the info).

That comes down to about $126 a day. So, a regular, off the shelf hat still costs somewhere near a day's wages today.

But, the fact that there are far fewer hat makers and by orders of magnitude fewer new hats hitting the market every year than there used to be and means that the $120 to $150 per hat is actually higher than it would be if felt hats were still very popular.

Also the $500 and more that custom hat makers charge is a result of the fact that ultra quality hats simply aren't made much by factory hat makers is s skewed statistic. The prices that custom hat makers get today would be untenable in a market where hats were plentiful.

So, what I am saying here is that if hats were still being mass produce in the numbers that they once were, my guess is that few would cost more than $60! And that would be half a days wages meaning that hats would be cheaper than they used to be.

What do ya'all think?

rlk · Oct 27, 2010

I can buy a suit for about $100.00-$4000.00
Shoe ,hat and suit prices are generally similar, but the Custom finer quality examples now cost a greater amount relative to the basic(often Asian factory).

Salty O'Rourke · Oct 28, 2010

rlk said:
Inflation Calculators are not so helpful with hats. They barely changed price from 1920's to early 1960's relative to general merchandise. A $10.00 hat was common throughout this period(even in the late 19th Century). There was large capacity(increased productivity) and then declining demand in the big picture. Since early 1960's Houses and College Education have increased about 20X but Computers are cheaper.

And a lot smaller - and that was just the control interface, the whole thing was this big.

Dewhurst · Oct 28, 2010

suitedcboy said:
What I would really like to know that might lead to some different opinions: Is there anyone here who is "experienced" enough that they sampled and purchased hats 50 to 60 years ago?

This would be interesting, but only if they happened to record their observations at the time. Nostalgia and longing or their opposites creep in and ruin memories. Anecdotally, there are movies I enjoyed a scant 5 or 10 years ago that I can barely stand now. The fuzzy feelings are quickly excised upon re-examination.

So, what we would be looking for is an "experienced" hat loving diarist! (No small order, Methinks)

John in Covina · Oct 28, 2010

monbla256 said:
You pose some VERY INTERESTING points in your questions.
First, I know my father expected his hats to last for as long as he was willing to wear them, though I cannot say how long that was in his mind. I do remembering him taking some he had had since the 50's down to the Salvation Army back in the 70's as they "...were to old" And is the value of todays upper end and mid-range fur felt hats on a par with the prices for the same in the preceding decades? I'll merely provide a link to a chart of dollar values and CPI from the 1800's to the present: You decide

http://mykindred.com/cloud/TX/Documents/dollar/

And remember an IMPORTANT thing, 3/4/5 decades ago a hat was a STANDARD piece of male clothing and were produced in FAR greater quantities than the NICHE MARKET hats made today, either custom or production items. So it stands to reason that many things would be DIFFERENT in that regard. I'm sure there were probably as many lousy $10.00 hats as there were supurb $10.00 hats then. They were a MANUFACTURED, RETAIL item and we all know the variety there can be in that

The quantities involved back when would probably allow for some reduction in production costs as opposed to now. Art Fawcett had written about how the felts are made now versus back then and the jist of it was that other than some of the chemicals used in the processes the felt are made the same way. As to quality of them there was a variety of opinions but many still believe the vintage was better others do not.

JimWagner · Oct 28, 2010

I was thinking that there is another factor at work here. Call it apples to oranges. How fair is it to compare a well broken in vintage hat to a brand new unworn one? Let's even leave vintage out of it. How about comparing a broken in modern hat to a new one?

A broken in (not broken down) almost anything is almost always thought of as better than the same item new. Take leather items for example. Or denim jeans. People go to extraordinary (some would say ridiculous) lengths to shorten the break in time and acquire the broken in cachet. Words like "patina" are used instead of "corrosion" to make it all sound desirable.

Just a thought.

John in Covina · Oct 28, 2010

Many modern production fedoras are given the shellac treatment that was reserved for cowboy hats so when that softens up the hat has a different nature.

BanjoMerlin · Oct 28, 2010

John in Covina said:
Many modern production fedoras are given the shellac treatment that was reserved for cowboy hats so when that softens up the hat has a different nature.

Stiffening of fedoras and dress hats is nothing new.

Hat Corporation of America was using shellac on fedoras in 1941.

"Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating" (1919) details several methods of stiffening hats and notes that most would not need it because the original stiffening could be brought up with water and a hot iron.

"A Treatise on Hat Making and Felting" (1868) also details the stiffening process.

John in Covina · Oct 28, 2010

BanjoMerlin said:
Stiffening of fedoras and dress hats is nothing new. Hat Corporation of America was using shellac on fedoras in 1941. "Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating" (1919) details several methods of stiffening hats and notes that most would not need it because the original stiffening could be brought up with water and a hot iron.
"A Treatise on Hat Making and Felting" (1868) also details the stiffening process.

I only mentioned it as most vintage hats I have seen (and got to fell) did not seem to have used shellac, and the custom ones today don't seem to use it either. BUT a lot of the modern factory ones seem to get the treatment to lock in the crown and pinch set up. Most cowboy hats seem to have a heavy shellac stiffener applied.

BanjoMerlin · Oct 28, 2010

Most felt hats have at least a little bit of some kind of stiffener. Western hats are usually thicker felt and get a lot of stiffener.

The stiffener doesn't last forever. Over time a hat will soften up.

gtdean48 · Oct 28, 2010

The blanks that Art gets from Winchester have some shellac applied. They do put lots more shellac in bodies destined for western hats, especially the brim area. The brim area of the other blanks get a touch more than the crowns. I'm sure the pouncing that the hatters do afterwards softens the felt even more but there is shellac in there. Or did I misunderstand what I saw there?

Mulceber · Oct 28, 2010

Most felt hats have at least a little bit of some kind of stiffener. Western hats are usually thicker felt and get a lot of stiffener.

The stiffener doesn't last forever. Over time a hat will soften up.

True that - and a bit of stiffener is a good thing: as some people have complained in the soft vs. stiff thread, an incredibly soft hat can actually be rather annoying as it won't hold it's shape very well. Also, if I recall my conversations with Steve Delk correctly, a bit of stiffener is actually necessary when making beaver felt hats, as they won't hold their shape at all without it. -M

Sam Craig · Oct 28, 2010

Regarding the price issue ...
I bought my first good new hat in 1969. It was a Beaver Brand cowboy hat, made of "coney" fur felt. Very well made, very good felt. It was $12 in Jonesboro, Ark. at a western wear store.
In 1970, I got another. It was $15.
In the mid-70s, I purchased three good Stetson cowboy hats and a couple of Resistols, all under $20.
In the 80s. those jumped to about $40.
In the late 80s, I bought a Churchill dress hat at Jack Henry's on the Plaza in Kansas City ... $115.
I wish the Churchill had worn half as good as the Beaver, Resistol and Stetsons I bought.
What has radically changed is the market in vintage men's hats ... though I recognize that I am lucky to live in a rural area. They may not show up all that often, but when you find one they are still affordable.
The Internet auction prices are astounding ... though they are certainly market driven.
When I was in college at KU ... in Lawrence, near KC ... great vintage homburgs and fedoras were readily available for $10 or so.
Last year, I nabbed a terrific Knox Hankachif felt fedora in Lawrence ... large size, new condition, for $25
I guarantee a burger, movie and a beer have inflated more than that in the past 35 years!

Sam

AlterEgo · Oct 28, 2010

Starting as a child in the early 1960s, I accompanied my dad and grandad when they shopped for hats. Memphis department stores Julius Lewis and Goldsmith's, as well as several other local men's habardasheries, all had extensive hat departments, and the experts who worked there really knew their stuff.

Because of that, and the fact that my parents and grandparents taught me at a very early age how to assess quality in clothing and everything else, I got the opportunity to handle lots of hats. Strange for just a kid, but I'm now so very thankful for the excellent shopping education.

The hats were top-notch Dobbs, Churchills, and Stetsons, plus store-labelled ones made by those manufacturers exclusively for these establishments. The best were super-high-quality chapeaus, and now, 40+ years later, being the only male offspring, I have my father's and grandfather's hats. In my opinion, these hats are no better or worse than the best hats available today. The only difference is that the old hats are comparatively pliable, yet I remember their being quite stiff when new/in the store. Time and wear simply softened them up.

I cannot speak first-hand to hats made in the '50s and prior, but of those in the same general level, I see no discernable quality difference--felt, sweat, ribbon, lining, construction--between '60s-era and today. Purchased in the late '60s, my first fur felt was an Akubra Slouch (we called them Campaign or Aussie Bush hats back then), and I still have it. Other than initial stiffness, there is absolutely no difference between the new ones and mine.

Too bad it's much too small for me now, and too bad my dad's and grand's are much too large. Fine keepsakes, nonetheless.

CRH · Oct 29, 2010

I'm betting that our grandfather's whined about how "They just don't make hats like Grandpa's anymore."

:deadhorse

suitedcboy · Oct 29, 2010

AlterEgo said:
Starting as a child in the early 1960s, I accompanied my dad and grandad when they shopped for hats. Memphis department stores Julius Lewis and Goldsmith's, as well as several other local men's habardasheries, all had extensive hat departments, and the experts who worked there really knew their stuff.

Because of that, and the fact that my parents and grandparents taught me at a very early age how to assess quality in clothing and everything else, I got the opportunity to handle lots of hats. Strange for just a kid, but I'm now so very thankful for the excellent shopping education.

The hats were top-notch Dobbs, Churchills, and Stetsons, plus store-labelled ones made by those manufacturers exclusively for these establishments. The best were super-high-quality chapeaus, and now, 40+ years later, being the only male offspring, I have my father's and grandfather's hats. In my opinion, these hats are no better or worse than the best hats available today. The only difference is that the old hats are comparatively pliable, yet I remember their being quite stiff when new/in the store. Time and wear simply softened them up.

I cannot speak first-hand to hats made in the '50s and prior, but of those in the same general level, I see no discernable quality difference--felt, sweat, ribbon, lining, construction--between '60s-era and today. Purchased in the late '60s, my first fur felt was an Akubra Slouch (we called them Campaign or Aussie Bush hats back then), and I still have it. Other than initial stiffness, there is absolutely no difference between the new ones and mine.

Too bad it's much too small for me now, and too bad my dad's and grand's are much too large. Fine keepsakes, nonetheless.

Thanks Alterego.
I have been fascinated with hats since age 2 or 3 and there are pictures of me as a 4 year old wearing a fedora in my sleep.
I recall being with my dad in the early 60's when he'd shop and I would handle hats on the old hat trees they had them on in many stores. I had no recollection of how stiff they were and the ones I could get my hands on on display trees may not have been veryy good hats anyway.

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