How do you think a vintage diner would do in modern times?

Matt Crunk · Jul 25, 2013

For awhile now (at least a few years) I've had the idea to either find and restore, or recreate from scratch, a vintage early 50's Valentine Diner and actually try to open it for business somewhere selling basic era-correct roadside comfort food. Am I nuts? I'd like to hear thoughts from especially anyone in the food service business.

1930artdeco · Jul 25, 2013

If you have good food and are in a good location you will do fine. Also remember to cater to car clubs and your business will boom.

Mike

Dinerman · Jul 25, 2013

With an 8 or 10 stool Valentine, the profit margins will be low, but then again, so will the overhead. It's relatively easy to find old diners inexpensively, but the transportation, setup and restoration costs can get astronomical in a big hurry. You might want to get in touch with Gordon Tindall, who just finished restoring and is now operating the Spud Boy lunch out in Minnesota.

Tomasso · Jul 25, 2013

The resturant biz is dicey no matter the concept. The ideal situation for a first timer is to partner with an experienced, successful restauranteur.

rjb1 · Jul 25, 2013

It's not that style architecturally, but here in Nashville Brown's Diner is a local landmark and a business success. Here is how they describe themselves:
Brown’s Diner
Founded in 1927 and in continuous operation ever since, Brown’s Diner has proudly served Nashville’s best cheeseburger for over 85 years. From its modest beginnings in a mule-drawn trolley car, Brown’s has become a favorite watering hole for platinum selling recording artists and construction workers alike. Home of Nashville’s oldest beer license, too many “Best Cheeseburger” awards to list, and an ambiance that simply can’t be re-created, Brown’s is a Nashville institution that shouldn't be missed.
Locally owned since its inception and a proud family-run business since 1972, Brown’s Diner has seen many changes around it over the years. As we celebrate our City’s growth and prosperity, we promise that one thing will never change – excellent food at affordable prices.
From our family to yours, we look forward to serving you and sharing one of Nashville’s best and oldest traditions with generations to come.

You're only about 100 miles away - you should drive up and check them out and get a great cheeseburger like your mother used to make. (There is no telling how many of those I have had.)

Stanley Doble · Jul 25, 2013

You would need to keep in mind that most of your patrons would not be concerned much with "vintage" style. To them it would be just another gimmick.

In other words it would not be enough to be vintage. You would need the right location, good food, advertizing, whatever goes into a successful restaurant.

You would also be competing against the heavily advertized chain fast food places. They have all the best locations and most people go to them automatically.

There was a great hamburger and fried chicken place on Lansdowne Street in Peterborough called Royal Drive In from 1958 till 2009. When the owner shut the place down he remarked that if it had a Burger King sign out front, his business would have increased by 40%.

MPicciotto · Jul 25, 2013

I don't see a public restroom in those drawings, Only one behind the counter for the staff. Therefore nobody could eat in that diner. In my area is a small chain of Diners called the "Double T Diner". Has that whole retro look but is substantially larger then the originals it's designed after. And the deserts are off the hook.

Matt

Matt Crunk · Jul 25, 2013

MPicciotto said:
I don't see a public restroom in those drawings, Only one behind the counter for the staff. Therefore nobody could eat in that diner.

I've already taken that into consideration. I would expand off the back with a simple structure that would essentially double the overall size, which would house two public ADA compliant restrooms on one side, and additional kitchen & storage space on the other.

LizzieMaine · Jul 25, 2013

The real problem, I think, would be dealing with what people expect from restaurants nowadays. Around here, at least, it's becoming increasingly difficult to find a place that serves just plain old traditional no-frills American food. It has to be stylized in some way, it has to be "upscale," it has to be presented by a chef, not a simple short-order cook. A traditional diner has a very hard time of it in this type of climate -- its customers tend to be older, and they have an unfortunate habit of dying off.

The young, hip crowd might be attracted to such a place for "irony's" sake, but as soon as they find out their choices for coffee are Maxwell House and Sanka, they'll be out the door with a derisive snicker.

I, however, would gladly patronize such a place. I'm a regular at the last remaining non-upscale eatery in town, and the day they start tarting the place up is the day I leave.

Matt Crunk · Jul 25, 2013

I understand what you are saying Lizzie, and it's something to consider. But here in the South, just about every town has one or two "greasy spoons" that have served the same menu since the '40s or 50's or longer and are still frequented by young and old alike. There is one soda & sandwich shop within 20 miles of me that has been around since the teens. They are packed out every day.

Fletch · Jul 25, 2013

A.C. Lyles said:
The resturant biz is dicey no matter the concept. The ideal situation for a first timer is to partner with an experienced, successful restauranteur.

Who will immediately talk you out of doing anything that is not tried and true, on grounds that the failure rate is too high and the margins too low at the best of times.

And you're not going to attract car clubs with authentic vintage anything. There's a reason those guys take 20s to 50s cars and redo them in 60s and 70s style. The point is to recast the past in the image of their own generation.

Dinerman · Jul 25, 2013

Another word of advise. If you're planning on buying a diner and moving/restoring it, never start the process until you already have land to set it up on, and the entirety of the setup money set aside. Far too many fail right off the bat, having blown everything prior to opening.

V.C. Brunswick · Jul 25, 2013

Fletch said:
Who will immediately talk you out of doing anything that is not tried and true, on grounds that the failure rate is too high and the margins too low at the best of times.

And you're not going to attract car clubs with authentic vintage anything. There's a reason those guys take 20s to 50s cars and redo them in 60s and 70s style. The point is to recast the past in the image of their own generation.

I call this 1996 does 1956 :doh:

Fading Fast · Jul 25, 2013

One thing you said that stood out is that you believe, based on other examples, that there would be demand. Obviously, you don't want to build a business without having done a strong demand assessment. If you do that assessment and afterwards believe there would be demand, then I would do an extensive, detailed and heavily critiqued business plan that - more than anything else - fully and honestly builds out all of your start up costs including how long you could stand to lose money until you built a clientele. Those successful restaurants that you referenced have had those forty and fifty years to embed themselves into the community and build that customer base. So, most importantly, you need to say, I can afford to lose x dollars if this fails. Hopefully, that never happens and your business becomes the success that you want, but if you know and can accept your downside, then the stress will be manageable and you will not have put yourself in a financial place you can't afford to be if it doesn't work. If you move forward, please keep us up as you'll have many fans here rooting for you to succeed.

Gingerella72 · Jul 25, 2013

Based on those blueprints I'd say seating would be an issue, too. Today's restaurant patron wouldn't be too thrilled about not having a more private space (a' la booth) to enjoy a meal with their family or friends. There is an old-school greasy spoon here that has a row of counter stools plus tables and booths; the place is always packed to the rafters for lunch but no one, no one chooses to sit at the counter. They'll either wait for a table or booth to open up, or see that their only choice is the counter and walk out. Just something else to consider.

Matt Crunk · Jul 25, 2013

Fletch said:
Who will immediately talk you out of doing anything that is not tried and true, on grounds that the failure rate is too high and the margins too low . . .

Probably true. But if I had listened to others I would have never started my last business. They said I'd be crazy and doomed to failure if I tried to start it with less than $50k to invest up front. I had $8k and I went for it. Within five years I was grossing $250k plus and ran the business successfully for 12 years, eventually opening two more locations. Naysayers are always gonna be there with the attitude that just because it hasn't been done that it can't be done.

Matt Crunk · Jul 25, 2013

V.C. Brunswick said:
I call this 1996 does 1956 :doh:

This is a prime example of what I DON'T want to do.

Stanley Doble · Jul 25, 2013

I always wanted to have a diner called "Mom's Home Cooking". So when people asked, where is Mom? I could say, she's home, cooking.

You can use that if you want. I'm never going to have another restaurant.

Here's another idea. In the local area, in the last 20 or 30 years, there were 2 small restaurants that did very well out of the breakfast and lunch trade. They catered to workers and shoppers in the downtown business area. The speciality in both cases was soup. In one you could get a bowl of home made soup and garlic bread for $2.95. Coffee extra. (this was quite a while ago). Each day there would be a choice of 2 different kinds of soup and this is what probably 90% of the patrons ordered.

If you know what you are doing you can make the most delicious home made soup for $1 a gallon.

Accompanied by garlic bread, a biscuit or roll hot soup makes a filling and nourishing meal at low cost.

They opened at 7 for breakfast and closed at 4 in the afternoon.

LizzieMaine · Jul 26, 2013

Gingerella72 said:
Based on those blueprints I'd say seating would be an issue, too. Today's restaurant patron wouldn't be too thrilled about not having a more private space (a' la booth) to enjoy a meal with their family or friends. There is an old-school greasy spoon here that has a row of counter stools plus tables and booths; the place is always packed to the rafters for lunch but no one, no one chooses to sit at the counter. They'll either wait for a table or booth to open up, or see that their only choice is the counter and walk out. Just something else to consider.

That's a problem modern patrons have with the idea of diners in general -- they were designed and intended for people who needed to eat fast and get moving even faster. Customers were actively discouraged from the sort of "leisurely dining experience" that moderns seem to prefer, and diners were deliberately designed to be just uncomfortable enough that you wouldn't want to loiter in one too long.

Counters were designed for lone eaters -- office or factory workers who were just there to grab a quick meal and leave. Moderns tend to eat in pairs, and they'd rather sit across from each other than beside each other. The ultimate in this idea was the "one arm lunch room," where instead of booths or tables, there was a long row of one-arm school desks lined up against the wall opposite the counter. You sat down, ate your food, and got out as quickly as possible. Several entrepreneurs made fortunes with chains of such places between 1900 and 1930, but the concept seems to have died with the Depression and never really came back. Eating out since then has been intended and marketed as a "social experience."

Me, I'll eat at a counter every time, as long as the stools aren't so close together that I don't have room to open my newspaper.

Dinerman · Jul 26, 2013

Although the east coast diner manufacturers started moving away from the purely counter setup to booths in the early 1930s, as soon as the construction and shipping technology allowed for wider and longer diners to be built.

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