Aero Leather Zippers

[Cocker]

Hello folks,

Can you please tell me what's the difference between the regular Talon zipper and the Hookless Talon zipper? What would be the best to use on a 38-1711-P A-2?

 

[HPA Rep]

Likely either a Talon or a dual-labeled Hookless Talon; though it's possible some Hookless zippers were still available for that contract, it's not likely. But please keep in mind, we are speaking about knowledge based on examination of a sliver of what was a tiny contract; you can get a feel for the situation from such observations, but having seen enough anomalies in my life regarding such subjects, you'd have to see every jacket that was made to speak with total authority. The best we can offer are educated guesses based on extant examples.

 

[Cocker]

Thanks for the head up! Problem is, I still don't fully understand what a hookless zipper is, what's the difference with a regular one. The only thing I understood is that they are sort of a pain in the a$$ to zip.

 

[Sloan1874]

Here's a pic of my Hookless. It was taken just after I'd got the jacket, and as you can see I hadn't quite got the hang of the thing. Basically, it has two visible rivets and doesn't have the more substantial female section. It's a bit tricky initially, but really it's just a zip, once you've got the hang of it, it's not an issue.

 

[nick123]

I love the look of that closeup part of your jacket Sloan. Not only the zipper, but that little ornate stitching. Those little details are crucial to the final product.

 

[Monitor]

I love the look of that closeup part of your jacket Sloan. Not only the zipper, but that little ornate stitching. Those little details are crucial to the final product.

+1 And the tartan tease. lol

And just a decade ago, I would have laughed if someone told me there's a discussion on the internet about zippers on a jacket. Interesting thread, I too have always wondered what exactly Hookless is and whether it operates differently from regular zippers.

Oh, and here's a mandatory complaint about how fidgety Aero no.5 Talons are, and should be replaced with 8, at least.

 

[Sloan1874]

Hookless actually refers to the name, I think it refers back to the days of hooks and eyes as fasteners. This one is actually Ken's own handiwork: he made this jacket as a test for the Dust Bowl. The tartan is Ettrick Forest, one that doesn't appear very often but I think it's one of the nicest:

 

[Dinerman]

The combination of the Hookless slider and that grommet zipper stopbox is something which only exists in reproduction form. It was never actually produced back in the day.

By the time the separable bottomed zipper (the type used on jackets) was invented, the name of the product had already been changed to Talon.
There were a few transitional sliders marked Talon with a small Hookless at the bottom produced for jackets in 1930, but not the strictly Hookless slider which is seen on many reproductions today. That was phased out around 1928, and was only found on fixed-end zippers.

It's a subtle difference, but when zippers are such a useful tool for dating originals, and when so many reproduction companies use the anachronistic mid '20s Hookless slider on a 1930s Talon stopbox combination, it becomes an important distinction. That said, to my knowledge, while there are a number of different versions of the Hookless slider being produced (several different versions from Japanese makers and one made by Talon itself), there are no current reproductions of the period correct 1930s Talon marked slider. So while the era is off by a decade for that Hookless marked slider for that 1938 contract of the A-2, it's the closest thing available as far as the shape goes.

 

[Blackadder]

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?75159-Contract-37-3891P-H-L-B-Corp-by-The-Few
The zipper on this is marked Talon alone. Unfortunately, I turned that over so you will have to take my word for it. Dinerman, this is the correct 30s zipper?

 

[Dinerman]

That's a later 1930s style slider, with a slightly different shape than the one above. It's period-accurate for that grommet style stopbox.

 

[Blackadder]

That's a later 1930s style slider, with a slightly different shape than the one above. It's period-accurate for that grommet style stopbox.

Many thanks.

 

[Fanch]

I perceive that the grommets at the bottom might provide a more secure/strong attachment than conventional zippers. Any input from zipper experts?

 

[Dinerman]

There were about five years of overlap with that style of stopbox with grommets and the "deco" stopbox. Talon ads from that period described the grommet style as for heavy jackets and the "deco" style for lightweight ones.
Despite that advertising, the "deco" style became the standard for all jackets, and the "grommet" style was dropped from production after a little less than a decade.

Improvements on that closed stopbox design continued to be produced and are the basis for nearly all stopboxes produced today.
The stopbox of the "grommet" style had metal extension tabs extending from the stopbox and the male prong with holes for grommets for extra reinforcement, though many makers stitched through those holes instead of riveting through. Later, nylon or plastic pieces on the ends of the zipper tape took over the job of reinforcing that wear-prone area.

 

[Carlos840]

Just FYI, Alexander leathers has stopped offering Talon zippers as an option, apparently their last batch had a huge failure rate (my jacket's new zipper failed after around a month of use) and Talon completely refused to take any responsibility for it...
You might be one of the lucky ones who gets a working zipper, but you might also end up like me, trapped in your jacket with the zipper stuck at the top and unhooked all the way down, looking like the leather version of a mexican prison gang member!

 

[Fanch]

Carlos, I haven't heard reports of unusually high rates of failure from Aero's Talon zippers, which makes me wonder where AL sourced their zippers, and where the zippers that AL used were made.

 

[Sloan1874]

Perhaps AL got a batch of Chinese copies? I've never suffered any problems with Talons I've had with Aero.

 

[Monitor]

Neither have I, but I had a friends HWM Talon stuck in the exact manner described above, while I was trying on the jacket - stuck at the top and unhooked all the way down. It took us (his wife was helping too) half an hour to get me out of the jacket (not that I trying really hard as I was hoping they'd eventually give up and let me have the jacket). Once we managed to detach the zipper, it continued functioning normally and my friend hasn't reported any trouble with it since.

Having said that, I'm on my fifth Aero right now, all had Talons and never had a single problem with any of them. Perfectly good zipper, as far as I am concerned and I always ask for 'em.

 

[Otter]

Do I not remember a similar thread from about two years ago regarding a batch of zips that were not up to spec? I remember ones as being sold off via eBay.

 

[Fanch]

When I googled "defective Talon zippers" I found this URL. If AL had a bad batch of Talon zippers, I wonder if the bad batch might be counterfeit? That question would require AL to communicate directly with Talon to see if that might be the problem. [huh]

http://www.talonzippers.com/corporate/counterfeit/

 

[navetsea]

do jacket manufacturer buy jacket zipper per piece with specified lengths as a complete set, or do they buy a roll of zipper teeth, bunch of sliders, stoppers, bottom separator boxes, and then mix& match them together?