I plan to try on different pairs from different brands in Japan just to see. And then maybe try to get a used pair once I figure out sizing. But definitely taking heel slip and the unique fit of engineers into consideration.
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Boot makers with the best leather selection and clicking?
- Thread starter philli
- Start date
Edward
Bartender
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- 26,263
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- London, UK
I've actually been tempted as an alternative to engineers for a quicker on/off boot at airports. (I usually fly in penny loafers, but this time of year they're kinda cold on the ankle, and not great in Winter / the wet if travelling light wearing an 'only shoe' for the trip.) How do they compare to engineers for ease that way?
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I have experience with a lot of the makers you mentioned. I have also bought a sold a lot of mtm boots from indonesian and japanese makers over the past 5 years. I have never dealt with tarriff issues and dont know how they will effect indonesian products specifically.
In keeping with your listed price range and considering quality/bang for your buck/design there are a few options that i really like, but wait times can be an issue with a few.
My two favorites by a fair margin are FlamePanda and Zerrows. Both of these have impeccable design and clicking and their finishing and stitching surpass Clinch and Role Club at half the price(of which i have multiple boots from both brands, so can directly speak to this.) The trade off (because there has to be one somewhere) is that these both have very long wait lists, i think 1.5 years currently. I have also had sizing issues with both of these brands and had to have remakes due to it, making the process longer. But the boots are unbeatable in their styles. I love flame pandas monkey and service boots and 206 flat toe last. For zerrows their Type 1 engineer and flat toe last are incredible and one of the best engineer silhouettes in the game.
As far as indonesian makers, Briselblack, Renav and Onderhood have very excellent finishing, stitching and clicking on tier with the brands above. Their prices range is a bit less than the previous two, but I think their lasts, silhouettes, and pattern design are not quite as strong.
If you have an questions feel free to ask or dm me. Good luck with your purchase!
In keeping with your listed price range and considering quality/bang for your buck/design there are a few options that i really like, but wait times can be an issue with a few.
My two favorites by a fair margin are FlamePanda and Zerrows. Both of these have impeccable design and clicking and their finishing and stitching surpass Clinch and Role Club at half the price(of which i have multiple boots from both brands, so can directly speak to this.) The trade off (because there has to be one somewhere) is that these both have very long wait lists, i think 1.5 years currently. I have also had sizing issues with both of these brands and had to have remakes due to it, making the process longer. But the boots are unbeatable in their styles. I love flame pandas monkey and service boots and 206 flat toe last. For zerrows their Type 1 engineer and flat toe last are incredible and one of the best engineer silhouettes in the game.
As far as indonesian makers, Briselblack, Renav and Onderhood have very excellent finishing, stitching and clicking on tier with the brands above. Their prices range is a bit less than the previous two, but I think their lasts, silhouettes, and pattern design are not quite as strong.
If you have an questions feel free to ask or dm me. Good luck with your purchase!
Holy, a veteran has been summoned. I’m actually in discussion with Peng from flame panda currently about a 131 last monkey boot (debating between 102 and 131 still) but the wait time makes me nervous about sizing issues as I know some people had experienced previously. I am leaning towards going up half a size from brannock size cause I can work with half a size bigger but I can’t work with half a size too small.
I also had some discussions with Zerrows but also got turned off by the wait time as engineers are even harder to get the sizing right and didn’t want to wait 1.5 years to get something that doesn’t fit. But their price to quality does seem attractive.
If I had to ask, what would be your advice to avoid some of these sizing concerns?
They are all responsive until they have your money.
True
Peng is an amazingly kind and honorable guy, but he has run into a lot of personal health and logistical issues over the last few years that have been difficult to field. I had 3 boots from him and ended up selling one.
The first was the more simple 102 last monkey boot, which to this day is one of the most beautifully aging items I have ever seen (maryam horsebutt.) Fits perfectly, 102 is an accommodating last. Keep in mind all his boots are absolute tanks. Heavy builds, thick soles, they take a long time to break in and always feel like armor, but in a good way. But might be a lot for those not used to thick horsebutt and soles.
The other boot of his i kept is a two tone natural mural maryam reverse hb/black overdyed maryam hb service boot that is also gorgeous and aged beautifully. His communication can be difficult, he is overrun with orders and demand and really can't keep up with it. I had sizing issues with one pair too, but he will fix it, at the cost of you waiting longer. But quality of boots, finishing, neatness of stitching, custom overdying etc. are only second to White Kloud in my opinion. . I think design/last beauty wise, Role Club and Clinch take that cake,but they have their own drawbacks as well, not for this post.
I'm sorry i cant help you with size comparisons because he never told me what size mine were. 206 and 102 lasts are accommodating though. I had another pointier last in the third boot in the same size and it crushed my foot to get them in and i ended up having it remade in another last.
As far as zerrows, i waited about a year and half and their sizing suggestion for me was horrendously off. I am a brannock 10.5 and 11 heel to ball with a lot of volume around the ball area of my foot. The suggested i order 11EE. the boots were an inch and a half too long when I got them. They suggested i go a half size down but i didnt trust their recommendation at that point. I actually asked them to measure their lasts and send that info to me so i could compare them to my foot measurements. I settled on one size down from the original boot they sent.
They took the return, remade the boots in my requested size and shockingly, they nearly fit like they are bespoke. better fit than my bespoke role clubs. i had good luck in that department i guess. Build quality and finishing is at least as good as clinch, design i'd say right there for engineers as well. I got the shieldman, which is pretty cool but kinda wish i just got the normal type 1 engineer with a flat toe last and the crimp line. The issue with the shield man which i did not think of until they were on me, is that the open calf area to allow freer calf movement does not strap the boot to your calf, so does not end up bending the ankle as much when you move your leg. so i'm not getting all of that wear to soften the shaft of the boot like i do in normal engeneers that are forcer to bend at the ankle with every movement of my leg. So they are kind like little stovepipes. This flat to last is quite low volume and really hugs your entire foot and the arch area the way clinch does. The waist of the sole cinches in to lock in your arch and i love it.
I will attach some pictures so you can see how the FP's age because it is something special. In the first picture you can see the 102 monkey boot new (on top) transposed with the boot after 6 months in the patina thunderdome. Next are the reverse maryam hb and overdyed black service boots, last are the zerrows shieldman in black overdyed maryam hb.
If you have any more questions i can help with shoot anytime.
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I understand the frustration but I think this is a bit harsh of a perspective for Peng, specifically. He is a genuinely incredibly kind and honorable man whose bootmaking hobby turned into business and lifts his remote rural town in china up. He gives money to his community and is actively training people to give them jobs and increase his production from the one man self taught hobby operation it originally was.
Obviously English is his second language and he works nonstop, except for when he hurt himself and had to stop production for some time, which inspired him to train others so that didnt happen again. I really think he is doing his best and has to handle everything himself, as no one else is there who can speak english and help him to answer emails from hundreds of customers trying to get in his production line.
It is frustrating to want to spend $1000 on custom boots and have to wait a long time to get a response, but know its not because he is actively trying to affect exclusivity or push demand higher, its because he is doing his best and simply can not even close to meet the unbelievable demand his singular skill is inspiring. I can't speak to other brands and their practices, but i know this guy particularly is not playing games or trying to screw anyone. He just simply can not do it all himself.
I don't care about the brand story he puts out or his excuses. There are people who paid him a lot of money up front who then got ghosted. it's unacceptable.
I am more professional, respectful, and considerate with people who buy $20 used items from me.
27 months!! jesus. With the amount of demand he has.....I think he needs to close the order books at a certain amount. Like just offer a limited number of slots for the year or something and set it to a number that he is able to fulfill for that year.
He needs to come up with a system instead of keeping people waiting. I think Quan seems like a better option at this point. Considering his pricing has duties prepaid and lead time is 3-4 months....
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i wasn't aware that this happened. has this happened to other people you are aware of?
It´s good of you to say that. Plus, I absolutely believe it´s true.
Yet, the story resembles the experience of some members with other makers. One-person operations, super-high focus on craftmanship. Then the demand surges due to positive reviews. Add some backlog due to supply-chain issues, personal challenges etc. and the lead-times are starting to get measured in years.
In such situations, upfront and transparent communication is key. I am also often working towards deadlines, and I always communicate where I am, ESPECIALLY if unexpected issues arise (which does happen frequently).
If you go donw the, "I have to much work to do to speak to the customers I am letting down"-route, you will likely take the fall. Sadly, people who are described as "kind and honorable" seem to be especially affected by this; perhaps they are personally overwhelmed by not being able to deliver as promised.
I have one pair of FP boots that I bought second hand. I still paid a lot of money, and I still am on the fence how to rate them. I sure don´t wear them regularly.
I echo all that has been said. Incredible craftmanship for sure, especially as concerns the sole-construction. They are wearable in a way, but sometimes I think they are more a testament of what is possible than something that is really fit for everyday use.
I like to compare FP to "Schuh Bertl" out of Munich. Also a one-man operation (beware of his web presence; he does outsource most of his popular-demand" stuff to Spain now.).
His boots are about as sturdy as FP. If the later resemble 1:1 boot-models carved out of marble, a Schuh-Bertl Boot seems to be made from wood. Yet his boots are incredibly comfortable from the first second. He somehow manages to translate a totally rigid outer construction into a an immensly pleasing tactile experience for the feet.
The comparison between factory made japanese boots and hand made Indonesian boots where the leather is hand cut and then the boots are hand lasted, hand welted and the outsoles are hand stitched is like comparing apples and oranges.
The amount of labor and expertise required for making a pair of factory made boots is about a tenth of what required of making a truly hand made pair of boots.
Even clinch that cost almost three times as much as briselblack are not hand lasted and the outsoles are not hand stitched.
Not everyone care about these things but they require a LOT of time and experience to make
I think briselblack has great engineers pattarn that fit me much better than other japanese and Indonesian pairs I owned but in retrospective I wouldn't buy an engineers pair without it being mtm or trying them on because the fit has to be spot on for them to be comfortable and not having heel slip
ABCD
I'll Lock Up
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- 7,710
To me they might make sense on a pair of fancy dress shoes but not on a pair of work boots.
If you actually use them for work I totally get it but if you buy them for the aesthetics (like me) I don't see much difference with dress shoes.
(But I might be biased because I make shoes as a hobby so I really know and appreciate the work that goes into making truly handmade pair)
Jon Crow
One Too Many
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- 1,349
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- Alcalá De Henares Madrid
27 months jeez it would have boiled my pizz in half that time haha
