Can you help me date this item??

[Miss Sis]

I'm looking at a skirt online that is being described as a 50's Lucille Ball type of skirt. The thing that has me stumped is the knife pleating. The seller has it displayed with a crinoline underneath to full it out. Were knife pleats common in the 50's? They're something I've always associated with the 70's.

I have seen 1940s ads for Gor-ray fully pleated skirts in England. Quite possibly it was for early 40s before clothes rationing because I don't usually look at post war stuff. I think I might have it in a magazine, so I'll try to see if I can find it and post a pic.

P.S: Sunny, good to see you back here!

 

[Sunny]

I have seen 1940s ads for Gor-ray fully pleated skirts in England. Quite possibly it was for early 40s before clothes rationing because I don't usually look at post war stuff. I think I might have it in a magazine, so I'll try to see if I can find it and post a pic.

P.S: Sunny, good to see you back here!

(It's good to be back - thanks for the welcome! I've always enjoyed our discussions. )

I would love to see those ads. It wouldn't surprise me if they're early or even pre-war; it was pointed out in a thread some time ago that the late 30s styles pretty much flow seamlessly into the so-called New Look of 10 years later. Skirts were getting longer and much fuller, and I do think some in patterns were gathered. I don't remember seeing a pleated one, but that's just memory and what I've seen. Then in the middle of 1940, abruptly hems were at the knee and rather skimpy. Pleated skirts from the war years were popular, but they weren't really very full.

 

[Puzzicato]

I have seen 1940s ads for Gor-ray fully pleated skirts in England. Quite possibly it was for early 40s before clothes rationing because I don't usually look at post war stuff. I think I might have it in a magazine, so I'll try to see if I can find it and post a pic.

P.S: Sunny, good to see you back here!

In Mike Brown's The 50s Look he says pleated skirts were worn all through the 50s. I don't actually know what a knife pleat is though so I am not sure if it is the same thing. And I'm sure he showed pictures of Gor-Ray ads! May have been a British thing though.

 

[MissHannah]

I just found this handy reference via the magic of google:

"
top stitched pleat
Pleat extending from a series of ornamental stitches on the outside of the fabric.

accordion pleat
Set of thin upright pleats of uniform width along the grain of the fabric.

knife pleat
Pleat created by a vertical fold pointing in one direction and of constant width.

kick pleat
Inverted or flat back pleat at the bottom of a straight skirt, providing greater ease of movement.

inverted pleat
Pleat formed by two folds that meet in front and touch on the outside of the fabric, thus forming a hollow in the fabric."

 

[Puzzicato]

I just found this handy reference via the magic of google:

"
top stitched pleat
Pleat extending from a series of ornamental stitches on the outside of the fabric.

accordion pleat
Set of thin upright pleats of uniform width along the grain of the fabric.

knife pleat
Pleat created by a vertical fold pointing in one direction and of constant width.

kick pleat
Inverted or flat back pleat at the bottom of a straight skirt, providing greater ease of movement.

inverted pleat
Pleat formed by two folds that meet in front and touch on the outside of the fabric, thus forming a hollow in the fabric."

Wonderful! Thank you!

In which case, I think the 50s pleated skirts I have seen were top-stitched pleats.

 

[MissHannah]

There's also sunray pleated skirts:

 

[MissHannah]

And I just found this blog, which refers to sunray/accordian pleats as knife pleats... SO confusing! But has a lovely image of 50s pleating:

http://coutureallure.blogspot.com/2009/09/pleats-for-home-sewer.html

 

[MissHannah]

I'm going vintage-pleating crazy now...

 

[Puzzicato]

Oh I want this one!

 

[Miss Sis]

I found this ad on the back page of August 1941 issue of Woman's Fair with Everywoman (nothing like consolidating magazines during Wartime!)

Also I found another very similar in the September 1940 issue of Stitchcraft, but it is a much smaller ad. I'm sure I've seen another ad with sunray pleating for Gor-ray, where the top of the pleats are not stitched down, but my quick look through my magazines has not turned it up. Annoying, as I can see it in my mind's eye!

 

[Lauren]

I have a pattern very similar to the one above from 1940, and suits with pleated skirts from 1939- but they don't reach the proportions of the 50s skirts.
Pleating was always around in some form or another. I think the trick is where the tucks release and how full the skirt is to help figure out what era it's from. I've even seem that sunburst style pleating in high fashion magazine photos from the 1930s.
Of course the 70s did a LOT of this all over again, so standard vintage vs. more modern rules apply- look for nylon zippers, the type of linings, overlocking at the seams, fabric types, etc...
I ran into a dress at the thrift store the other day that totally looked like a 50s dress if you didn't pay attention to fabric and minute construction detailing... but the fabric and lining gave it away as 70s.

 

[Miss Sis]

That's what is so annoying that I can't find the ad I know I've seen with sunray pleating from the late 30s/early 40s. It's very full looking which is not what people think of for the era.

 

[Sunny]

I have seen several (and own one) very full skirt patterns from 1939 or 1940. I hope you find that ad, though, since I haven't seen one that's pleated. The ones I've seen were all with multiple gores, usually 10 or more.

 

[Lady Day]

Sunny!
Its so great to see you around again!

LD

 

[swinggal]

I'm new so let me start with saying: hello everyone I work in a vintage boutique in The Netherlands, but me and my colleagues are having difficulties dating these shoes:

I think they are quite unusual, but lovely. Real snakeskin, leather sole... maybe '70 because of the platform...?

Definatley 70s. The heel and toe opening are a the giveaway and the label.

 

[MarieAnne]

Thanks Sunny! Sorry the picture is so blurry. My camera was having a terrible time focusing. Here is the best one I got.

 

[Sunny]

MarieAnne, it's definitely a vintage label, not early than 1950. Probably later 50s or 1960s. Way to go!

Sunny!
Its so great to see you around again!

LD

Glad to be back - thanks for the welcome!

 

[Nomanolo]

Definatley 70s. The heel and toe opening are a the giveaway and the label.

Good, that's what I thought and found out by looking into it. I think at first we were mistaken by the kind off 'Carmen Miranda' looking shoes... cause some of the heels she wore for instance were in fact kind of 'block'-looking. (Of course this conversation happened in our minds at the time haha.) Only they were never as 'straight' as the ones on my picture.

Edit: These shoes are from the Carmen Miranda museum in Rio de Janeiro, previously owned by C.M. herself.

(Excuse me for my english by the way, my lack of knowledge results in saying 'platform' for lack of a better word with regards to the heel in this case.)

 

[Puzzicato]

(Excuse me for my english by the way, my lack of knowledge results in saying 'platform' for lack of a better word with regards to the heel in this case.)

There is nothing to excuse! Your English is superb.

 

[Sunny]

Good, that's what I thought and found out by looking into it. I think at first we were mistaken by the kind off 'Carmen Miranda' looking shoes... cause some of the heels she wore for instance were in fact kind of 'block'-looking. (Of course this conversation happened in our minds at the time haha.) Only they were never as 'straight' as the ones on my picture.

(Excuse me for my english by the way, my lack of knowledge results in saying 'platform' for lack of a better word with regards to the heel in this case.)

Ooh, you have a good eye! I've never seen 40s shoes with heels as absolutely straight as they were in the 70s, so that makes the identification very clear. Good job! And your English is great, no matter what you think. "Platform" refers to the extra-thick sole under the ball of the foot, and you used it correctly. They were around in the early 40s for sure, possibly influenced by leather shortages; when cork and wood soles were substituted, they needed to be thicker than leather. I haven't seen 40s platforms more than 1" (though I sure haven't seen everything), but 70s platforms could be very exaggerated.