Classic Hollywood Anti-Hero

[Diamondback]

Maybe it's an Aussie thing so see rebellion against the Establishment as a heroic thing.

Once upon a time, it was an American thing too--like those malcontents Washington/Franklin/Jefferson et al., or an ancestor who told the corrupt 1830s Congress he was leaving to join the Texican fight for independence from Mexico, "You all can go to Hell--I'm going to Texas!"

Maybe it's still there, but nowhere near what it once was.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

No need to explain the distinction.

Kelly is the quintessential antihero for the reason you have articulated. To some he was nothing but a common crim, and yet he has become this mythical underclass hero to many in this country. It is this split persona that characterises the antihero. Movie depictions have encouraged the latter, more noble, perception, but even in his lifetime the Irish settlers seem to have looked to Kelly to settle a few scores with the police and the law on behalf of their community.

His famous last stand at Glenrowan during which he strode out of the mist into a hail of gunfire wearing his suit of armour - was, to Ned's mind, not just a hijacking of a local pub. It was an uprising against corrupt police by an army of Irish supporters with the armoured Ned Kelly at their head.

Of course, the rebel army didn't turn up and Ned was left to take on the thin blue line with only his three gang members, who, by the time of Ned's outflanking manoevre in the mist, were probably already dead.

To the Irish settlers and the rural poor, Ned remained a hero. To the establishment, he was always merely a crim. The same can be said of your Jesse James and Dillinger for similar economic, though less political, reasons.

Banjo Paterson's 'Jolly Swagman' in Waltzing Matilda was a sheep thief who committed suicide by drowing himself in the billabong rather than face arrest by the approaching police. His defiance of the law and of authority is held up as heroic in that song in which he came to represent Everyman in the struggle against economic injustice. Though he was merely a common thief if that's all you want to see. That's the essence of the antihero - the multifaceted bad guy with noble intent...at least some of the time.

Maybe it's an Aussie thing to see rebellion against the Establishment as a heroic thing. Maybe that's why Waltzing Matilda - a song about a suicidal sheep thief - has become Australia's national song, second only to the much more boring national anthem at state and national events.

Thanks for your explanation and pointing out the heroic aspects which delineate the those who are simply rebellious and those who are heroes, albeit folk heroes. Again there is a distinction which you clearly expressed.

Those you describe appear to be folk heroes.

Being an evil character in a movie such as The Boston Strangle has no virtue nor is it heroic. The distinction is very clear and at times painted with broad strokes. Moreover, In "Breaker Morant" 'although the film is biased towards the Australians it doesn't make Hancock and Morant out to be saints, they are neither heroes nor anti heroes and are aware that in this new era of war new rules are needed to combat the enemy. They are not innocent of their crimes and even though they were following orders to kill prisoners some were carried out with malice and in revenge.' Point being to act contrary to the social norm does not make one a hero or anti-hero.

Sometimes a villain is just a villain. And sometimes a folk hero is just a folk hero.

An anti-hero appears to have the following characteristics will include, but are not limited to:
imperfections that separate them from typically "heroic" characters (selfishness, ignorance, bigotry, etc.);
lack of positive qualities such as "courage, physical prowess, and fortitude," and "generally feel helpless in a world over which they have no control";
qualities normally belonging to villains (amorality, greed, violent tendencies, etc.) that may be tempered with more human, identifiable traits (confusion, self-hatred, etc.);
noble motives pursued by bending or breaking the law in the belief that "the ends justify the means."

Further, in literature and film, an anti-hero is a central or supporting character that has some of the personality traits traditionally assigned to villains or un-heroic people, but nonetheless also has enough heroic qualities, intentions, or type of strength to gain the sympathy of readers or viewers. Anti-heroes can be awkward, obnoxious, passive, pitiful, obtuse, or even normal; but they are always, in some fundamental way, flawed, unqualified, or failed heroes. When the anti-hero is a central character in a work of fiction the work will frequently deal with the effect their flawed character has on the other people they meet. Additionally the work may depict how their character alters over time, either leading to just punishment, un-heroic success or redemption.

 

[scottyrocks]

Perhaps merely due to Paul Neuman and Robert Redford, I would have to suggest Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid as anti-heroes.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Yep - Butch and Sundance would qualify.
At least in the movie's depiction of them.

 

[HadleyH]

Two more anti-heroes:

Jimmy Gagney in "Public Enemy" (1931)

Al Pacino in "Dog Day Afternoon" (1975)

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Noname

Clint Eastwood makes this list as the “man with no name” from the Westerns. A man with a dark past, no future, and he knows how to kill and how to move on after killing. He’s not kind, but he is righteous. He’s a killer and he knows it, but he will only kill other killers. He has no name because he has no future, but he has a true code of honor. Not good, not bad, but honorable.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

***********
No need to explain the distinction.

The Austrailian Goverment has a very clear depiction of what Ned Kelly was about.

The bushranger Ned Kelly is one of Australia's greatest folk heroes.......

http://www.cultureandrecreation.gov.au/articles/nedkelly/

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

The Austrailian Goverment has a very clear depiction of what Ned Kelly was about.

The bushranger Ned Kelly is one of Australia's greatest folk heroes.......

http://www.cultureandrecreation.gov.au/articles/nedkelly/

Now CB - when has a government ever given careful consideration to anything?

Anything at all???

 

[Feraud]

Edit - Thelma & Louise was already mentioned as was Clint Eastwood but I will specifically mention The Outlaw Josey Wales.
While technically an outlaw, if you've seen the film you know why he is more a hero than the Union Soldiers chasing him.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Now CB - when has a government ever given careful consideration to anything?

Anything at all???

Point is you hold yourself out to be an attorney. As you well know things are what they are, not what we think they ought to be. Basic contracts principals and basic rules of interpretation. The thread is to be narrowly construed. Of course if you wish him to be an anti-hero that is fine; this is just a place for discussion.

Kelly wonderful story, great hero but not an anti-hero.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Point is you hold yourself out to be an attorney. As you well know things are what they are, not what we think they ought to be. Basic contracts principals and basic rules of interpretation. The thread is to be narrowly construed. Of course if you wish him to be an anti-hero that is fine; this is just a place for discussion.

Kelly wonderful story, great hero but not an anti-hero.

Huh? Nice attempt at the legalese there CB.

But what did it mean?

How can he be a hero if he was a murderer and a thief? It is this juxtaposition of the noble and the ignoble that makes him a quintessential antihero.

And 'holding oneself out" as a lawyer is illegal in this country! Hells Bells CB - you'll get me in trouble with talk like that!

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Huh? Nice attempt at the legalese there CB.

But what did it mean?

How can he be a hero if he was a murderer and a thief? It is this juxtaposition of the noble and the ignoble that makes him a quintessential antihero.

And 'holding oneself out" as a lawyer is illegal in this country! Hells Bells CB - you'll get me in trouble with talk like that!

lol lol lol Attempt.....that first year basic legal principals. This is getting fun old boy....

Again I will refer to the aforementioned Australian site...

Holding One's self out is a term of art. It means to represent one's self as haveing a certain legal status. (see Black's Law Dictionary Eighth Edition)

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

lol lol lol Attempt.....that first year basic legal principals. This is getting fun old boy....

Again I will refer to the aforementioned Australian site...

Holding One's self out is a term of art. It means to represent one's self as haveing a certain legal status. (see Black's Law Dictionary Eighth Edition)

Mr Black needs to defer to the Legal Profession Act 2007 (Qld) on that one CB. Besides - we use Halsburys in the civilised jurisdictions!

I doubt an Aussie Government site is much of an authority. Government's pander to popular myths, misconceptions and prejudices. Poor old tinclad Ned was always and ever will be a mixture of outlaw and working class hero - that is - an antihero.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Mr Black needs to defer to the Legal Profession Act 2007 (Qld) on that one CB. Besides - we use Halsburys in the civilised jurisdictions!

I doubt an Aussie Government site is much of an authority. Government's pander to popular myths, misconceptions and prejudices. Poor old tinclad Ned was always and ever will be a mixture of outlaw and working class hero - that is - an antihero.

Can you cite a few statutes??? I am sure there is a distinction between holding one's self out to be an attorney who is NOT licensed and one who is. Like I said it is a "term of art" not a law. Big distinction.

I think you are more of the anti-hero model than Ned Kelly, you fight the good fight and right the wrongs that need to be righted.

Unless you are a recognized authority I will defer to the Australian site.

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

CB, you're keeping me up. It's 11:30pm on a work night y'know!

I'd have thought that fighting the good fight and righting wrongs would more often define a hero not an anti-hero. Anti-heroes can do heroic things but lack the usual attributes of heroism.

Me a recognised authority? On some things - but on this I'm just opinionated!

But I'm in good company.

Now to sleep.

 

[Cricket]

For some reason my mind keeps floating to Michael Corleone. In fact, most mafia or mobster movies always have me rooting for people who necessarily don't need to succeed.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

CB, you're keeping me up. It's 11:30pm on a work night y'know!

I'd have thought that fighting the good fight and righting wrongs would more often define a hero not an anti-hero. Anti-heroes can do heroic things but lack the usual attributes of heroism.

Me a recognised authority? On some things - but on this I'm just opinionated!

But I'm in good company.

Now to sleep.

Yes that why I rely on "black letter" authority and treatise. Otherwise I am just "talking through my hat".


Thank you I hope this was as good for you as it was for me.

 

[Lily Powers]

If you don't my tossing in a non-vintage, not techinically "Hollywood" in the big screen sense, but a true anti-hero none the less, Detective Vic Mackey (portrayed so well on the small screen by Michael Chiklis in "The Shield"). A corrupt cop who beat confessions out of child molestors, committed murders, theft, adultery and covered it all up, yet loyal to the people he cared about, a good father (rotten husband) who used stolen funds to help with school and treatments for his autistic daughter... and throughout all his wrong doings, I hoped he would never get caught. The cops I know either hated the show (people shouldn't think of cops like that) or loved it (Vic Mackey was their alter ego). Macky had an odd set of morals and very few ethics. His firm belief was that the ends justified the means.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

If you don't my tossing in a non-vintage, not techinically "Hollywood" in the big screen sense, but a true anti-hero none the less, Detective Vic Mackey (portrayed so well on the small screen by Michael Chiklis in "The Shield"). A corrupt cop who beat confessions out of child molestors, committed murders, theft, adultery and covered it all up, yet loyal to the people he cared about, a good father (rotten husband) who used stolen funds to help with school and treatments for his autistic daughter... and throughout all his wrong doings, I hoped he would never get caught. The cops I know either hated the show (people shouldn't think of cops like that) or loved it (Vic Mackey was their alter ego). Macky had an odd set of morals and very few ethics. His firm belief was that the ends justified the means.

Vic Mackey's morality is a classic example of dualism. He is sworn to uphold the law, yet regularly breaks it for professional and personal gain.

 

[dhermann1]

I believe the term anti hero was actually invented to describe the great John Garfield. If it wasn't it should have been. Check him out in "The Postman Always Rings Twice". Whew.