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Discussion in 'Hats' started by MississippiLong, Jun 25, 2008.
Killin' me here ...
What 4x clear beaver? Got to throw the BS flag on this one.
Even though four X beaver can be found much earlier, I feel DH's sweatband observations carry a lot of water. The leather is in pretty rough shape, but it doesn't look old the way some do, at the end of a lot of years. Those tend to still show their original color, but the skin part that defines smooth out leather begins to crack and break down. Rough leather begins to peek through the smooth hide, usually showing as lighter splotching, because it hasn't been conditioned with scalp oils like the smooth surface was. I'd have loved to see that hat from Oz be a very rare and early find down under, but that band is, 1) very smooth leather 2) faded, and worn out in a way that looks more weathered to me than aged. 3) apparently chewed on, because the missing leather doesn't really jibe with how smooth and sound, even if dried and faded, the leather mostly appears. 4) the faint Stetson logo noted and commented on seems to be "only skin deep", as the saying goes, not imprinted significantly into the surface of the sweat band 5) additionally, that style logo probably can be dated with some accuracy regarding it's origin; both of the known early four X sweats we saw advertised that fact as XXXX Beaver Quality, but the logo with a Beaver on the left holding or standing beside a rectangular banner, the one that is on the down under Stetson, says it with a numeral, as 4X. It seems to me that the beaver/banner is still current, or was pretty recently in Western hats. It's in a western I have that I've never considered an old hat,it was on the original sweat of the Forrest Service Western I have, and I sure see it a lot in my eBay travels, 3X, 4X, sometimes 5X. I'll have to make it a point to try to validate this impression, but I feel like it's mainly seen in hats from my adulthood, even those with rectangle size tags that list international size and American sizes.
Buler recently posted an interesting catalog of Stetson logos and stamps up to 1900, I believe from that Stetson gathering some Loungers attended recently. It's too bad they didn't continue to catalog them once a decade or so. I also suspect using regular numerals to count the Xs came later, because the XXXX motif is a bit more iconic or regal, more in line with the sensibilities of those past times. I won't promise to eat my hat, but I'll be really surprised to see Xs counted with numerals in the pre 1900 labeling Buler found.
^^^^^ So @dr greg 's statement of "I reckon 55-56 at best" sort of fits! You're off the hook @deadlyhandsome
I may have to say my lifetime in that case, not my adulthood (which my wife claims I never had anyway).
Anyone want to take a guess at this hat’s age? The size tag doesn’t look that old to me, but The Hatted Professor shows them used in the 1940s. I’m terrible at estimating the age of hats:
The photos aren’t mine, and I know they aren’t very good. As I don’t have possession of the hat I can’t know what the labels under the sweat look like.
Thanks in advance!
I'm seeing ads for that store in '37, '49 and '51. So I guess '40s is certainly possible.
Thanks, Bob. I made an offer and less than a minute later went back and bought it at full price. It’s hard to tell from the photos but it looks to be in good shape. There’s just something about a Cavanagh edge that I can’t resist.
I believe that to be an OPA tag peeking out from the right in the one photo.
Nice. Great eye!
I think we place oilskin liners on Stetsons as ‘48-‘52, this seems to be a decent guide for other US brands as well; plastic seems to appear in about ‘53.
I think the label will be OPS/ early 1950s.
I’d be very happy with OPS and over the moon with OPA! Thank you all.
Greetings all, I ordered this Knox fedora from Ebay and it's being delivered today. Very excited. Wondering if anyone can put a date on it. I'm attaching the images that were on Ebay. If anyone thinks there is information that could be useful that is missing from the images provided I'll see if there's anything else that I can take a picture of once it arrives. Any information would be appreciated. Also, kind of an unrelated question, but did Knox ever make wool felt fedoras? Or did they work specifically with fur felt?
A very nice looking Knox, Christopher. Photos of the sweatband and labels under it will help to determine the age.
Is there a store name on the sweatband? It has a combination US and metric size label that I associate with more recent hats, but if it was made for the export market...? Maybe?
When you get the hat be sure to post photos of the label(s) behind the sweatband.
There is a store name. Ferner Jacobsen AS Oslo Import. Also, under the Knox logo on the sweatband it looks like it says "Made in Italy Under License". I'm not sure if any of those indicate the age. I looked up Ferner Jacobsen and it looks like they're still in business. I also don't know if the KV by the store name are initials or something else. Usually when I see initials in hats I see three initials, first middle and last. Again any information would be appreciated. Thanks everyone!
EDIT: Not sure if this pic helps, but the only thing I could find behind the sweatband is a square shaped stamp with nothing legible on it and a few stamps of the number 1279. Is that at all relevant to anything?
So, it's a Knox made under license in Italy and sold in Oslo, Norway.
I don't know who had the license in Italy, but looking at your Knox, I'd guess it was either Barbisio or Panizza. Probably the former.
Date wise, I'd say around about 1960s.
Thank you for the information. I used to have a Panizza that I bought when I was in Rome so I'm familiar with that company. Barbisio I've heard of but I've never actually owned one of their hats. In any event it's nice to have the information on the date. Thanks again!
You're welcome, Christopher. It could just as well be Panizza as Barbisio. Daniele @Daniele Tanto would know best.