Dinner suit / eve tailcoat for dancing: high armhole / scye

[ascanio]

Hello again.

I'm looking for an evening tailcoat for ballroom standard dancing (i.e. watzer, foxtrot, tango and alike). Vintage is an option, but online tailor is another (I cannot afford more than 500€). After an initial suggestion of my teacher and a very bad experience with an unexpensive dinner suit I own, I searched the web for some insight about what to look for when searching a dress suitable for dancing or orchestra directors.

I found two links on the subject, very informative (the first thanks to this forum):
http://mrlapel.blogspot.it/2008/04/its-all-in-armholes.html
http://www.blacktieguide.com/White_Tie/White_Tie_Tailcoat.htm (look on the left column for the term "scye")

Especially the first post is eye opening, about how a high scye makes a day & night difference about the dress behavior once a dancer is raising both arms in the typical closed posture.

However they lack to say how high is high! I measured some of my jackets, including a dinner suit jacket, calculating the difference between the typical "Shoulder seam to cuff" and "Underarm seam to cuff" that ranged around 8.7 inches (22 cm), size approximately equal measuring the armo hole "height" from in side the jacket. All the jacket this style become ugly once I raise both my hands.

I then checked online for vintage tailcoats (around 1940-1950) and, when both measures were reported, the difference calculate to approx 7.7 inches (19.5 cm), so just a little less.

Does anybody have a correct understanding how tall (small) should be the armhole (scye) for an evening tailcoat (but should be a general recommendation) to be still wearable but offer minimum deformation when both arms are raised, and at the same time leaving freedom of movements?

I also read somewhere (I could not find it again) that in order to be suited for ball, we should make sure to ask the tailor to place the sleeves straight. I am not sure what it means, but maybe somebody may have additional sartorial insights for my purpose?

Also of note, this post:
http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2012/01/kilgour-recreates-fred-astaires-tails.html
Which reads: "small technical details that made the tails easier to dance in, including a particularly large sleevehead and exaggerated rope on the shoulder, in order to accommodate the sleeve" - which I don't quite understand. Maybe is important also the heavy 130s cloth that makes it more "cast on"?

Thank you very much for sharing your idea or experience.
Ascanio

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

I can't help with exact measurements (or a way how to measure the "scye") but I think you will be save with tailcoats before the 50s or even 60s. It reall got much worse in the 80s. For under 500 you won't find the quality of a 20s-40s tailcoat. Made to measure is better than off the rack but I still would advice to go vintage!

 

[esteban68]

You'll definately need it tailored for dancing, Len Goodman has a great anecdote about when he first started dancing and he got an 'evening' suit made he had to go back and get it altered because when he raised his arms the whole coat lifted, as an amateur ballroom dancer myself you do indeed spend most of your time in hold ! not always a bad thing depending on your partner!
My understanding of having it cut straight is that when in hold the jacket falls straight down naturally.

 

[Qirrel]

Does anybody have a correct understanding how tall (small) should be the armhole (scye) for an evening tailcoat (but should be a general recommendation) to be still wearable but offer minimum deformation when both arms are raised, and at the same time leaving freedom of movements?

I also read somewhere (I could not find it again) that in order to be suited for ball, we should make sure to ask the tailor to place the sleeves straight. I am not sure what it means, but maybe somebody may have additional sartorial insights for my purpose?

Also of note, this post:
http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2012/01/kilgour-recreates-fred-astaires-tails.html
Which reads: "small technical details that made the tails easier to dance in, including a particularly large sleevehead and exaggerated rope on the shoulder, in order to accommodate the sleeve" - which I don't quite understand. Maybe is important also the heavy 130s cloth that makes it more "cast on"?

1. The way you have measured the height of the scye is not really accurate, as the "cuff" is not a definite point, and neither is "the shoulder seam" or "the underarm seam", although it does illustrate that vintage jackets have armscyes that come much closer to the armpit than anything (almost) which can be bought off the rack today. The correct way to measure is from the nape of neck, (where the undercollar meets the centre back seam) straight down, to a point level with the lowest point of the scye. With a tailors square (or any large square found in most hardware stores), place one arm along the back seam - with the jacket flat on the table - and place the other arm so that it touches the lowest point of the scye. The measure of the arm placed along the back seam is called the depth of scye. (The acual measurement used in pattern drafting is 1/4"-3/4" shorter due to the seam consumed in the armscye and sometimes in the sewing on of the collar.) This measurement is commonly determined as a proportion of the chest, or simply by a table of proportions, such as this one: http://thecostumersmanifesto.com/costumeoldsite/history/victorian/cutterspt9/6.jpg . The chest sizes in that table are as measured over the vest, not over the shirt.
For a clarification on the depth of scye measure: http://thecostumersmanifesto.com/costumeoldsite/history/victorian/cutterspt9/9.jpg

2. Tailcoats made especially for dancing are made with a sleeve which naturally stands almost straight out of the body, so that the sleeve will appear perfectly clean when the arm is raised for dancing. It is not strictly necessary to make a sleeve which stands out at a 90 degree angle with the body to prevent the whole garment from rising when the arm is raised, and besides, such a sleeve looks very ugly when you are not raising your arm.

3. Simon Crompton's words about the technical details that make the tails easier to dance in do not make much sense. I will forgive him that, since he probably doesn't draft or sew anything himself; he probably misunderstood what the people at Kilgour were telling him, or they told him something which is not quite true. What he means by "large sleevehead" is not clear, as a taller sleevehead is detrimental to the coat's ability to stay on the neck while dancing, and a broad sleevehead doesn't really help that much either. The same goes for the roped shoulder.

This blog post explains a lot: http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.no/2009/03/myth-of-mobility.html

 

[ascanio]

Thanks to both answers. I researched a bit and your answers are helping.
I found in fact that pro dancer do have dedicated tailors and several "touches" to make it a ball dress. What sets me off is that often these ball suits are referred to as a "costumes" and have longer tails and often elastic wool. How can I pretend to waltz in full elegance with "costumes" compared to a proper vintage dress made in the times in which these balls was THE ball? Well, I guess tech and "modern taste" should be followed being a "pro" since there are "modern judges" and you are not supposed to be different...

However being an amateur, I would like to take the luxury to dance in a "proper" tailcoat, meaning made in the year waltz was popular.
I will try to give a shot to some 50es tailcoats, maybe testing a couple of them before purchasing, or buying very cheap ones (found on ebay) and planning some little alterations... just for fun.

Worst case I found DSI shop in south London that offer pre-made dance tails for 6 month rent for £250 with £400 purchase option. Since I have some time, I will play around a bit first, anyway.

I will welcome more comments, especially how high is a high scye, and if interested I will report my findings on the way

Thanks
Ascanio

 

[ascanio]

Qirrel, thanks for the most informative answer!
A lot of food for thought and, most important, information for accurate measurement of the scye so I can properly compare.
I have a question though: supposing to find a jacket with reasonably high scye, do you think it is possible to make an alteration to straight a bit the sleeve, given that the sleeve is maybe 1-2 inch longer than proper length?
Thanks!
Ascanio

 

[herringbonekid]

if you want a jacket designed to be easy-to-raise-the-arms-in you set the sleeve more 'sticking out' than 'straight down' which means more fabric in under arm / armpit (like a shirt sleeve).
most tailors set the sleeves 'down' so it looks clean on the store dummy with sleeves hanging down.
most people don't stand around all day with their arms straight down.