ProteinNerd
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This seemingly simple differentiation certainly took me a while (and a lot of damn expensive jackets) to realise....but I agree 100%. Different styles fit differently.
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Freewheelers Caboose Jacket
- Thread starter dudewuttheheck
- Start date
This seemingly simple differentiation certainly took me a while (and a lot of damn expensive jackets) to realise....but I agree 100%. Different styles fit differently.
dudewuttheheck
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Yeah that was my main point. It's amazing how different the reactions were. I was expecting it to fit worse and would still have been happy with that.
Agreed. Cafe racers should be quite slim, but I feel like this is a pretty good middle ground.
Haha I am definitely not 150lbs right now, though I hope to be within the next year. I think being built the way I am just makes some people think everything fits me poorly. I'm definitely not built like a model or mannequin
You are not being a dick at all. I am definitely on track to loose quite a few pounds and this jacket is simply further motivation. The thing is, I'm going to the gym, not running, so my chest and shoulders will stay the same if not get slightly larger. Even when I weighed 20lbs less the chest on the 40 of this jacket would have been extremely tight.
That's a good point. However, I have no chance to break this jacket in right now haha
As a stitch counter, I am extremely thrilled with this jacket
Thanks for the kind words!Seconding what @Carlos840 said.
Also, @dudewuttheheck , don't know what the other forum is but I'll tell you right away that anyone telling this jacket fits poorly is clueless. I stand by what I have said before - it fits like a leather jacket should fit. People telling you this are probably the sort that want a sausage casing fit and every angle and inch just as they'd imagined it, without ever realizing they're actually making a polyester shirt out of a leather jacket.
The kind that wants every single leather jacket style from any time period to fit exactly the same. If I've actually decided to buy an accurate repro of a 50's leather jacket and go for the whole look, I'd rather have it fit the way it used to at the time, which is something I'm going to trust to people who made the jacket considering they're the ones who invested countless hours to get it the way it's supposed to be.
Saying that this jacket fits poorly is basically saying that the guys over at Freewheelers are a bunch of idiots.
Sure, the shoulders are a bit wide and the sleeves a bit long but do you honestly believe that this is because Freewheelers messed up the pattern and never bothered to fix it - or - because they know exactly what they're doing and have actually recreated every single aspect of this jacket, fit included, to make it right?
Furthermore, if you look a the promo shots, you'll notice that the jacket fits you exactly the same!
So yeah, please tell these people on this other forum to stfu.
Very well said. You make an excellent point about the design of the jacket itself. I hadn't even noticed that the shoulders fit him a little large as well, just as they do me. Personally, I like that the shoulders are a little big. It makes the fit a bit more comfortable. His sleeves are also quite stacked in this picture and this is the picture that really made me fall head over heels for the jacket!
I agree with all that’s been said about the fit. But to go as far as saying it fits poorly, that’s just dick.
I’ve stopped listening to people’s opinions a long time ago and so should you Dude. I know what I like and I know how I want my jackets to fit. From reading all your posts, you seem like a very opinionated person so I’m sure you know how you want your jackets to fit. As long as your happy with it, screw everyone else. Besides with longer sleeve length (which I personally think is a dope look) you can achieve sleeve creases like this:
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Haha I am indeed a very opinionated person. Ask just about anyone on this forum. I do think the jacket fits very well. Once I loose the weight, it should be absolutely perfect. Those sleeve creases are what I am hoping for. I will give the jacket quite some time before I give up and get them shortened.
Thanks! I am personally very happy with the fit. I was more commenting on the difference in reaction. It was interesting how divided it was by forum.
dudewuttheheck
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Yeah. I can't imagine fitting into the other jacket even after loosing weight. My chest is not going to shrink. It's been the same size since 20 pounds ago.
I know it's hard to compete with people used to seeing Duke Mantee model everything like it was made for him, but I wasn't expecting that. I am very confident that it will fit well after some pounds drop. The waist is really the only bad fit that couldn't otherwise be fixed. I will give the arms some time to stack before I trim them, but I am not worried because I know that that is an option.
Fit pics:
A Caboose jacket for a guy with a big 'ol caboose. Excellent
Bobby Peru
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I have a my share of jackets that if I had to nitpick on, I would conclude that the fit isn’t ‘perfect’. It bothers me much less when I think about the fact that in the era that these jackets were commonly worn, they were just pieces of clothing. Not part of a pseudo-retro costume. Many were ‘off the rack’ or off of a specialty catalog. If it worked, it worked and there are plenty of images of jacket wearers from that era where the fit would elicit the same forum jacketeer responses you’re referring to. You’ll see plenty of images from that era where jackets appear too big, sleeves too long, jackets too tight, etc.,. While I have my own idea of a ‘perfect’ fit for a off-the-rack jacket, philosophically I try to use the same buying mentality as back in that era - that the fit will likely not be perfect. In some cases I lucked out and got a perfect fit. I also have gone custom measured with makers who allow that process to be easy when I don’t want to take any chances.
In short, the jacket fits you fine. I prefer the sleeves to be shorter if it were my arms, but that’s just personal preference and your preference is just as valid. Anyone’s is.
dudewuttheheck
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That's very true. It's easy to forget that vintage jackets were likely all off the rack (leather jsckets at least.) It is not a perfect fit, but I am quite happy with it overall.
Interesting thread. Interesting comments about how real people bought real workwear back in the day, and the quality of fit they could have expected.
(Trigger alert)
When I saw the OP's jacket, I knew straight away what the problem was;
It's a Japanese idea of an interpretation of an simulacra of western vintage workwear.
With that in mind, it's based on a pattern cut for the dominant Japanese (Asian) male physique demographic; very thin.
Because any Japanese guy with a 42 or 40 inch chest would be pretty tall by Japanese standards, the jacket has wide shoulders and long sleeves. The OP (judging by chest size and photo optics) isn't tall and thin.
This is the same kind of proportion problems I have with off the rack suits here.
Interestingly, the only Japanese jackets I own (BR nylon) have exactly the same proportions as the issue vintage items I own, but are tagged as smaller sizes (I guess japanese customers have been conditioned to seek 'baggy' nylon flight jacket fits).
In the same way that many western ideas and images of Japan are completely incorrect, the Japanese are likewise sometimes at fault in their interpretation of western cultures.
'Orientalist' racist ideas about Japan often lead to enthusiastic repetition of misleading untruths.
It would be a mistake to allow a desire for exclusivity amongst a certain western customer demographic (N.B. I didn't say 'hipster'), to allow incorrect representations of western culture/heritage to be mistaken for 'authentic' reproductions in the future narrative.
A more interesting question would be why have Japanese allowed all of their clothing heritage to ossify into strict and repressive forms that most people reject for everyday usage, and reserve for clearly delineated events?
Why haven't these styles of dress been allowed to develop and grow over the years, allowing modern Japanese to enjoy their 'own' sartorial heritage instead of imitating ours?
(Trigger alert)
When I saw the OP's jacket, I knew straight away what the problem was;
It's a Japanese idea of an interpretation of an simulacra of western vintage workwear.
With that in mind, it's based on a pattern cut for the dominant Japanese (Asian) male physique demographic; very thin.
Because any Japanese guy with a 42 or 40 inch chest would be pretty tall by Japanese standards, the jacket has wide shoulders and long sleeves. The OP (judging by chest size and photo optics) isn't tall and thin.
This is the same kind of proportion problems I have with off the rack suits here.
Interestingly, the only Japanese jackets I own (BR nylon) have exactly the same proportions as the issue vintage items I own, but are tagged as smaller sizes (I guess japanese customers have been conditioned to seek 'baggy' nylon flight jacket fits).
In the same way that many western ideas and images of Japan are completely incorrect, the Japanese are likewise sometimes at fault in their interpretation of western cultures.
'Orientalist' racist ideas about Japan often lead to enthusiastic repetition of misleading untruths.
It would be a mistake to allow a desire for exclusivity amongst a certain western customer demographic (N.B. I didn't say 'hipster'), to allow incorrect representations of western culture/heritage to be mistaken for 'authentic' reproductions in the future narrative.
A more interesting question would be why have Japanese allowed all of their clothing heritage to ossify into strict and repressive forms that most people reject for everyday usage, and reserve for clearly delineated events?
Why haven't these styles of dress been allowed to develop and grow over the years, allowing modern Japanese to enjoy their 'own' sartorial heritage instead of imitating ours?
If I understand you correctly, you're asking why items such as kimono and hakama are limited to formal events such as weddings and graduation ceremonies as opposed to being developed for every day useage?
This is a very interesting question indeed!
A first "easy" answer would be that they did not want to tamper with how these items are used to avoid downgrading a traditional item, and since wearing them is so time consuming, they have been relegated to formal events?
On the other hand, something like a samue is used in a daily manner, but not by your typical office worker...
What are your thoughts overall?
Dr H
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Certainly true of my Freewheelers coats. My 42 Journeyman fits pretty well (but with little room for layering) with sleeves that are OK now they have creased; my 44 Journeyman is a much better fit about torso - shoulders marginally wide - but sleeves need to have around 3/4” removed before winter.
This is a fascinating question/observation BigJ. I can't presume to have the answer but I've always felt that the Japanese have a guarded attitude about their history and heritage and maybe Western /US apparel and history is seen as more disposable due to its relatively young age? I have no idea but a keen observation and interesting point indeed.
I always assumed the workwear/ leather phenomenon in Japan was born of the obsession with Harley Davidson motorcycles. When Japanese M/C builders starting punching out goosenecked panhead bobbers and knucklehead slammed to the ground I figured the leather jacket would naturally follow.
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Mich486
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They do repros of a wide range of clothing though not just leather jackets/motorcycle related things. In fact, It seems they also obsess reproducing not just western clothes but also food. And they are pretty damn good at it. Why this obsession? Who knows.
That said there are several Japanese brands that are much more fashion forward or they just use vintage stuff for inspiration which I think is a much more western way of approaching things in my mind.
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That said there are several Japanese brands that are much more fashion forward or they just use vintage stuff for inspiration which I think is a much more western way of approaching things in my mind.
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This bike is everything.
Zero engineering. Really cool stuff.
Ton, those are exciting photos!
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Jesus... So this can still be had! I thought it's something old... Well, all the same for me, just one more dream never to be fulfilled.
Big J, that's been very interesting to read, thank you for such detailed and informative point of view!
@ton312, those bikes are insane! My second thought though was that my crunchy spine wouldn't be able to take the riding position anymore.
@red devil, yes, you're getting right where I'm coming from with this question.
There's certain colors/designs for kimono and hakama that can be worn for graduation, weddings, and martial arts, flower arranging, tea ceremony classes etc, along with very 'occupation' specific colors and designs (like geiko/maiko, traditional instrument players and rakugo 'comedians' (although I use that term very loosely)), but all of these delineated types and situations were all prescribed by 'invented' social norms in the early Meiji era and presented as 'traditional' ever since.
I think (but I don't know) that this was some kind of reaction to the Meiji era adoption of so much western culture, kind of a streamlined and easy to understand 'this is your culture' for the masses. I guess in the space of ten years Japan caught up about 400 years of technological advancement, and people went from wearing rags in paddy fields to wearing top hats on steam locomotives. Only very rich people would have worn kimono before that, so I guess there was a need to simplify and explain kimono culture?
After the end of WWII, a generation of Japanese were exposed to Armed Forces Radio playing the Ventures and stuff, and teenage rebellion movies, and universal suffrage. This was probably the first generation to have an understanding of the concept of individuality. It's not surprising that they should fetishize the clothes of the era. It's also not surprising that they should get an interest in the flight jackets of the USAF. In much the same way as 70's punks wore Nazi armbands to upset their elders in the west, wearing American flight jackets probably had an element of inter-generational rebellion.
As 'traditional' Japanese dress has rejected all progress in fabrics and manufacture since the 1890's, the coat has rocketed, and the market has contracted. No new players enter this shrinking industry where low cost mass produced imitations from China can suffice for once a year (or once in a lifetime) attire for most people. The industry is killing itself.
The real shame is that prior to the 1880's there seems to have been much greater variety in styles and fabrics. There was no cattle, so no steer hide, but horse and plenty of deer.
I occasionally come across really neat vintage bear skin boots, shark skin shoes, deer skin gloves, hakama and jackets for horseback hunting, but the sizes are all so tiny, and they are excluded from the official selection of 'traditional' Japanese wear that you can buy today. Which is a real shame. Deer skin hakama are something I especially like, working just like a cowboys chaps. And short deer skin jackets with cord ties instead of buttons look really neat, kind of lancer style. There's a rich heritage there ripe for reviving and mining for inspiration.
@red devil, yes, you're getting right where I'm coming from with this question.
There's certain colors/designs for kimono and hakama that can be worn for graduation, weddings, and martial arts, flower arranging, tea ceremony classes etc, along with very 'occupation' specific colors and designs (like geiko/maiko, traditional instrument players and rakugo 'comedians' (although I use that term very loosely)), but all of these delineated types and situations were all prescribed by 'invented' social norms in the early Meiji era and presented as 'traditional' ever since.
I think (but I don't know) that this was some kind of reaction to the Meiji era adoption of so much western culture, kind of a streamlined and easy to understand 'this is your culture' for the masses. I guess in the space of ten years Japan caught up about 400 years of technological advancement, and people went from wearing rags in paddy fields to wearing top hats on steam locomotives. Only very rich people would have worn kimono before that, so I guess there was a need to simplify and explain kimono culture?
After the end of WWII, a generation of Japanese were exposed to Armed Forces Radio playing the Ventures and stuff, and teenage rebellion movies, and universal suffrage. This was probably the first generation to have an understanding of the concept of individuality. It's not surprising that they should fetishize the clothes of the era. It's also not surprising that they should get an interest in the flight jackets of the USAF. In much the same way as 70's punks wore Nazi armbands to upset their elders in the west, wearing American flight jackets probably had an element of inter-generational rebellion.
As 'traditional' Japanese dress has rejected all progress in fabrics and manufacture since the 1890's, the coat has rocketed, and the market has contracted. No new players enter this shrinking industry where low cost mass produced imitations from China can suffice for once a year (or once in a lifetime) attire for most people. The industry is killing itself.
The real shame is that prior to the 1880's there seems to have been much greater variety in styles and fabrics. There was no cattle, so no steer hide, but horse and plenty of deer.
I occasionally come across really neat vintage bear skin boots, shark skin shoes, deer skin gloves, hakama and jackets for horseback hunting, but the sizes are all so tiny, and they are excluded from the official selection of 'traditional' Japanese wear that you can buy today. Which is a real shame. Deer skin hakama are something I especially like, working just like a cowboys chaps. And short deer skin jackets with cord ties instead of buttons look really neat, kind of lancer style. There's a rich heritage there ripe for reviving and mining for inspiration.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, the idea that culture was streamlined and put in an "easy to use package" is very interesting. It does fit with the need to create traditions out of almost everything.
It is a shame that Japanese garments were frozen in times, pigeon-holed in a category, and never been allowed to evolve. It would have added so much more variety to the way we dress. Definitely curious to find out more about these older items.
This definitely is a good source of inspiration, I can already visualise quite a few combinations with indigo and leather!
It is a shame that Japanese garments were frozen in times, pigeon-holed in a category, and never been allowed to evolve. It would have added so much more variety to the way we dress. Definitely curious to find out more about these older items.
This definitely is a good source of inspiration, I can already visualise quite a few combinations with indigo and leather!
Benny Holiday
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Fascinating comments Big J. I would love to visit Japan one day, and your insights into the culture only increase ny interest in the place and the people.
Interesting questions Big J - even here in Australia in a smaller scale we've imitated or stolen so many American styles and forms and let our own idioms languish, it's not just a Japanese thing. Although our appropriation is a less obvious contrast and comes from a totally different history.
Our singers frequently sing in American accents, singing American style rap or rock or jazz, we wear American jeans and t-shirts (while our own brands fade away), we borrow American news themes and studio sets to dress up our own broadcasts, we copy American TV game shows and our most popular movies are American, and until recent times most of our most celebrated cars were made by Ford, Chrysler or General Motors.
I personally love American made things and the culture but there was a time when I was a boy, many decades ago, that people were often very concerned that Australian culture (which used to steal most of its ideas from the UK) would be lost to the American juggernaut. I wonder if there are or were people in Japan with the same concerns.
Our singers frequently sing in American accents, singing American style rap or rock or jazz, we wear American jeans and t-shirts (while our own brands fade away), we borrow American news themes and studio sets to dress up our own broadcasts, we copy American TV game shows and our most popular movies are American, and until recent times most of our most celebrated cars were made by Ford, Chrysler or General Motors.
I personally love American made things and the culture but there was a time when I was a boy, many decades ago, that people were often very concerned that Australian culture (which used to steal most of its ideas from the UK) would be lost to the American juggernaut. I wonder if there are or were people in Japan with the same concerns.
