Gladhatter Beaver courtesy of Rick 5150

[Matt Deckard]

Just remember... Indy wore a modern hat made of modern felt that (from some sources) severely tapered after Raiders.

I do defer to Arts knowledge, though I have not seen a vintage high crown taper in from its original shape.

I suppose if you take a 40's hat and stretch it to the stovepipe shape, it could shrink back, though the vintage hats I have that started their lives out without taper are still holding fast -- I never knew about hat tapering until I started buying new hats.

All hats do start out as cones and tend to want to pull back to that shape after creation... I think they had better techniques to relax the fur back then to prevent this from happening.

 

[Wild Root]

Hey Fisk, glad you share some of the same feelings.

Let me reiterate something. Say you have a NOS hat from 1937. It came in the original box. You ware it from time to time or, every day. You care for it like its part of the family. Then, for whatever reason you take the sweat band out, then the liner and the ribbon. Then you put it back to gather to what it was. The hat isn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t ruined, that?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s not what I meant. What I meant was that it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s no longer 100% original any more. Just adding new thread will take away from it being a completely original hat.

Like I said, if you have a trash hat and you want to put it to the test, go for it. But, if you have a good fedora and it serves you just the way it is with out tapering, why do it? I know that Fedora wants to prove the point that vintage felt will taper and that?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s fine! I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ll take his word for it. I wouldn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t send a vintage hat to see if it tapers after his test is conducted. I believe Fedora and Art that it would taper after the process like any felt would.

Matt can tell you that I believe in leaving it the way it is. Not to make it jump through hoops and such. Ware it, love it, cherish it and care for it. Then you would have a hat that you can pass down to your kids.

I respect you guys and I hope I didn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t come across too strong. I am just not one who favors vintage being turned into something it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s not.

PS. That?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s cool that kids will think that Mr. Fisk is on the cover of the Indy box set. That?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s swell!

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by Fedora
I am the guilty one for converting vintage hats into Indy fedoras. I am not bothered by the conversion. Felt is made through the use of water, heat and agitation and pressure. To steam a hat to reblock, or to wet it, does not harm the felt at all. Peas and carrots. I always use the original sweat and liner, but I do change out the ribbons. What I end up with is a very high quality Indy fedora, accurate to the era of this fictional character, and it goes longer between reblocks as it was better felt. I am glad that you deffer to Art, Matt. And it makes me feel good that he usually backs me up on my assertions. Fedora

Fedpra,

I have seen several of the hats you have done. Some of those hats start out looking pretty bad. I do not think you are hurting them very much turning them from unwearable into something that the owner can wear and cherish in a cleaner and more acceptable form.
What kills me is those that will take a nearly new homberg or other such hat and change it into something that it just was not meant to be. Most people start with something that is meant to be a fedora. If you block it a little differently then it does not make much difference since it was probably shipped from the factory open crown anyway.
It is when the entire style of a perfectly serviceable hat is changed that it bothers me. If they want a fedora then start off with one not a bowler, homberg or some such thing. This advice will also make Art and Fedora's job easier in making a hat that people want. Bring them something that they do not have to perform acts equal to Moses on and you will get a nice product out of it.
Just my two cents worth.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Andykev]

We've had this argument before about the sin of converting a vintage hat to an Indy. The prior analogy was the vintage car vs. the hot rod.

You have the right to do what you want to your property, as different people have different interests and tastes.

I believe that the vintage stuff should be preserved, but if I wanted a quality Indy hat, I think using a quality vintage hat body to start with would make a better product in the end than using some of the new hat bodies available today.

I still state that none of my vintage hats have tapered, especially the one that got soaked completely thur.

"What is there to gain when no one is even out side in the weather long enough to soak a fedora to the core any way.?"

My lost golden retriever was worth the three solid hours down in the creek, and through the night looking for her. The hat survived, and so did the dog.
Neither one tapered

 

[Andykev]

I disagree

"Let me reiterate something. Say you have a NOS hat from 1937. It came in the original box. You ware it from time to time or, every day. You care for it like its part of the family. Then, for whatever reason you take the sweat band out, then the liner and the ribbon. Then you put it back to gather to what it was. The hat isn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t ruined, that?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s not what I meant. What I meant was that it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s no longer 100% original any more. Just adding new thread will take away from it being a completely original hat. "

Wildroot, I vote NO. You have to maintain items, just like changing shoe laces on those beautiful vintage spectators.

 

[Wild Root]

Ok, you make a good point Andy! Maintenance isn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t bad! It is a good thing to do to keep a hat longer. But, I do have hats that are very special to me that I ware only on cold days (So I wouldn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t sweat in them) And I keep in a hat box for safe keeping. I have not done a thing to them other then some light steaming. These two of mine are 100% original hats! You can understand that when something modern is added to an antique it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s not all original any more. This is something that is well known with antique collectors. Yes, if the thread is rotten, or the sweat band is bad, replace it! Extend the life of the item!!!

Yes, I also agree that it is the owner?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s free will if he would like to take a Imperial Stetson and make it an Indy hat. I just wet my pillow at night when I hear of a perfectly beautiful hat going to the gallows.

Indy hats are wonderful! I think they have played a major roll in getting more men today to ware hats again! But, I feel that there are good enough replicas being made that would get the job done with out sacrificing a hat that will never be made again. Yes, I know that there are vintage hats that are dead and wouldn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t be worn unless Fedora or some one else saved them and made them a presentable head piece again. Props to them that use beaten soiled hats for this. But like jamespowers said, Homburgs to Fedoras? That?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s not right. But, it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s there choice to make not ours.

Just remember that these are in short supply and when it runs out, it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s done.

Cheers.

 

[Andykev]

Just one final comment you pointed out Wildroot.....

You say you have pristine vintage hats you only wear when you won't sweat...etc.

I used to have some vintage S&W guns from the 1910-1930's. Unfired. Collectable. I was saving them....keep them nice...

Then one day I just went out and enjoyed the living heck out of them, and now I do that with my vintage anything, hats, etc.

Since I am going to be dead someday, I have become a believer in enjoying what you have TODAY, lest it is your desire that someone else in the future will enjoy what you didn't.!!

 

[Fedora]

We just have different points of view, and there is room for all of us. We can certainly agree on one thing. They don't make felt like they used to. You guys also know that I like to argue the fine points. You guys keep on wearing the original blocks on the vintage hats, and I will keep on changing mine to the Indy fedora. That is the only style of hat that I like. Fedora

 

[Canadave]

Can someone explain what is meant by tapering? Sorry, I read every post for clues, but still I'm not sure I understand. At first, I just thought it meant "shrinking", but this doesn't seem to fit. Photos would be great, if possible.

David

 

[Wild Root]

Andy that is so awesome! I feel that one needs to enjoy ones collection! I am not at all telling any one to keep their stuff in a safe or vault. I just have hats for every day use and hats for the times I really get dressed up. I was at an event last week where I wore a 1930?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s suit with my tan Dobbs that I got two months ago. I posted photos of it. Any way, I was looking at a table with a HEUGE pile of dirty soiled fedoras new and old. The man at the table who was selling them wanted to see my hat. So, I showed him that it is an original from the mid 30?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s and that it was never worn before I got it. He said: Why are you wearing it??? I said, because I love it and, it deserves to be worn!

My point was that an antique would lose its complete originality if one makes changes. I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m just stating a collecting fact. Not trying to preach.

Fedora, if that?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s the style you love and you feel fits you best, I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m happy for you! I still disagree with using vintage for your Indy hats, but you know I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t go to classic car shows and beat hot rod guys up because they like hot rods.

Take care gentlemen and lets talk about something else

 

[jamespowers]

Tapering

Originally posted by Canadave
Can someone explain what is meant by tapering? Sorry, I read every post for clues, but still I'm not sure I understand. At first, I just thought it meant "shrinking", but this doesn't seem to fit. Photos would be great, if possible.

David

This is going to be dangerous since I am not an expert but someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Tapering occurs to the crown of the hat. It is a sort of shrinkage that can affect the whole crown and change the size of the hat in the worse cases. Mostly what you see is a crown that was once straight-sided will gradually taper over time. This taper changes the look of the hat because the once straight-sided crown has now gotten sort of pointy in the worse cases.
Most cases of tapering are minor. You notice it but it makes little difference to the overall appearance of the hat. It can be corrected with reblocking. The worst cases will even change the size of the hat due to the felt tightening up and slowly returning to its original cone shaped beginnings.
AndyKev can take it from there as to why the tapering occurs in more detail. I am a layman. I just know it can happen. LOL

Regards to all,

J

 

[Andykev]

Another name for a candle is a "taper". That is because of the gradual, er, taper from the base to the wick (top).

So, your beautiful 40's looking fedora gets a big squishy soak, and what was straight sides, suddenly shrink in a "taper" towards the top of the crown.

Put your two hands together in front of you, like you are praying. Keep the tips of the fingers together, now slowly pull your wrists apart. See the hands? They go from vertical to sloped...or in other words, the TAPER.

"Paul Harvey,.........Good Day!"

 

[jamespowers]

I knew I should have left this one alone. How did you get so much explaining done in so few sentences?! LOL

Regards to all,

J

 

[Canadave]

Thanks guys. I hope you know I understand what the word taper means, AK, just wasn't sure how it related to hats.

David

 

[Art Fawcett]

Gentlemen,
I feel I need to step into the fray here about not touching original hats or converting them as they are sacred in their original form. I recently converted a very nice Mallory Homburg for a client into a very nice Fedora because he loved the hat but would never wear it . He fealt he didn't look good in the style and wanted something different that he would actually wear. Now, this was a perfectly good Homburg, not moth bitten, not fading away, just not in the style he wanted.
He emailed me tonight somewhat uncomfortable about the fact that he had me change it after reading some of the posts here. What I said to him bears repeating here as it might help clarify my point of view on the matter.

Hats were made to be worn. They are not paintings, they are not fine jewels, they are pieces of felt made into headgear to protect our heads from the elements and to dress up our appearance. That being said, I would or will change the characteristics of a hat when asked with some fine exceptions. The first question I ask is " How many of these have I seen and will likely see again", the second question. " What is the historical significance of this piece?" 3rd. " What about this piece needs to be preserved so that we can learn from it in the future?"
If I have a moral dillema with any of these questions I won't change the hat as I am first a collector/historian/student. I will instead try to either talk the client out of the change or try to buy the hat for preservation. I personlly don't consider a '40s Stetson or Dobbs or many of the other popular names as sacred, just interesting. I realize that some of you do and that's fine and I support you, I just don't fully agree with you.
If we take the "Hot rod" scenario from another thread, I see it this way. If you want to hot rod a model "A" ford, chevy, plymouth or any of the names that are not historically significant other than production methods, go for it!!! If you want to hot rod a Tucker, Deusenberg, Bugatti, Marmon, Hispano Suissa, or other significant historical automobiles then I would have a problem. Bottom line...it's YOUR hat but it's only significant if it contributed in some way to the advancement of the art.

 

[fedoralover]

Amen Brother! I agree whole heartedly.

fedoralover

 

[Art Fawcett]

Contributions gladly accepted Fedoralover.

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by Art Fawcett
Gentlemen,
I feel I need to step into the fray here about not touching original hats or converting them as they are sacred in their original form. I recently converted a very nice Mallory Homburg for a client into a very nice Fedora because he loved the hat but would never wear it . He fealt he didn't look good in the style and wanted something different that he would actually wear. Now, this was a perfectly good Homburg, not moth bitten, not fading away, just not in the style he wanted.
He emailed me tonight somewhat uncomfortable about the fact that he had me change it after reading some of the posts here. What I said to him bears repeating here as it might help clarify my point of view on the matter.

Hats were made to be worn. They are not paintings, they are not fine jewels, they are pieces of felt made into headgear to protect our heads from the elements and to dress up our appearance. That being said, I would or will change the characteristics of a hat when asked with some fine exceptions. The first question I ask is " How many of these have I seen and will likely see again", the second question. " What is the historical significance of this piece?" 3rd. " What about this piece needs to be preserved so that we can learn from it in the future?"
If I have a moral dillema with any of these questions I won't change the hat as I am first a collector/historian/student. I will instead try to either talk the client out of the change or try to buy the hat for preservation. I personlly don't consider a '40s Stetson or Dobbs or many of the other popular names as sacred, just interesting. I realize that some of you do and that's fine and I support you, I just don't fully agree with you.
If we take the "Hot rod" scenario from another thread, I see it this way. If you want to hot rod a model "A" ford, chevy, plymouth or any of the names that are not historically significant other than production methods, go for it!!! If you want to hot rod a Tucker, Deusenberg, Bugatti, Marmon, Hispano Suissa, or other significant historical automobiles then I would have a problem. Bottom line...it's YOUR hat but it's only significant if it contributed in some way to the advancement of the art.

Makes sense to me as well.
Is this one worth preserving?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14065&item=8119844800&rd=1
LOL LOL LOL

Regards to all,

J

 

[Wild Root]

Yes! Oh yes! It needs to be displayed in the Smithsonian! LOL

Jamespowers, you have got to get that and save it for future generations! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

 

[Wild Root]

Homberg conversion.

Art, you know that I have respect for you and your business in vintage. I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m not going to say that the homberg to fedora conversion was wrong, but I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m going to say that if it were I, I would have just sold or traded the hat for a fedora that I liked. It seems easer then changing a hat that was designed to be a homburg. I know that homburgs are not very popular and I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t see any one ware them. But, even if I liked something a lot that I never ware, I would have sold it or used it to get a hat that would work better for me. That would be my alternative.

Don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t mind me every one, in my eyes there always is an alternative.

Enjoy your hats every one!