Gladhatter Beaver courtesy of Rick 5150

[Andykev]

I copied this post from COW..it is a detailed review of the new sterling beaver gladhatter fedora.

PDATE 07/05/2004:
The truth about the GH hat
Most people have been waiting for me to write something bad about the GH Sterling Beaver hat. Here it is: Within the first month I owned it, it began to taper. On the surface this seems as if it is terrible news, especially for those who bought these hats expecting them to be un-taperable. (I made that up, it is not in the dictionary.) But read on...and see the picture below labeled "GH taper."

For the record, I really got this hat intentionally soaked no less than 8 times. (I was literally standing in the pouring rain barbequing some steaks one time.) Almost the entire month after I received it was rainy and I took every advantage to get out and put the hat to the test. Nobody really knows how tough these hats are and my quest was to find out.

But money is only money and I want to get the information out to everybody so they can make informed decisions prior to spending big bucks. I dried the hat in the manner I dry all of my hats - either in the crown or on my head, depending on where I am and what I am doing.

I have no complaints for a number of reasons. Charlie indicated that he should treat it with water-repellant and that for the kind of conditions I was planning on subjecting the hat to, I should go with a heavier weight felt. Since I wanted a floppy hat that I could wear in the summer, I chose the one I received and asked that it had no water repellant added. No deception here, and believe me if I was angry about anything, I would post it right here and now.

Also, the hat is simply gorgeous. It feels really nice to the touch and while on my head. It is simply the highest quality hat I have in my collection. Now I know the limitations and I am learning what to look for in a hat. I do not like doing this the easy way and would rather learn by trial and error rather than heresay.

What I have learned since I sent my GH Sterling Beaver for a reblock is that virtually all fur felt hats are treated with something to aid in water repellancy. I base this comment on my pecan Optimo - one of my favorite hats for comfort and summer wear. This hat served me well through everything I could throw at it, before tapering around 8 months after I got it. What it took was a few hours in a combination rain/sleet/snowstorm. When it tapered, it tapered very quickly. I sent it for a reblock and a very short time later - with virtually no rain to blame this time - it tapered again.

What that told me is that whatever treatment that the hat had finally washed out and the hat quickly tapered. This is in no way saying anything bad about the Optimo. It is like comparing apples to oranges as the Sterling beaver hat was untreated.

I have tapered Federations as well and considering they have several excellent qualities that keep them from not tapering (including that they are shrunk as far as possible before the final blocking and they have a good degree of stiffener) it happened rather quickly.

The Optimo has outlasted the Federation and it has a water repellant rather than a stiffener. Find an effective water repellant and we will have a hat that will last a very long time between reblocks.

UPDATE 07/16/2004:
Water Repellant (courtesy of Charlie Swindall)
This can be ordered from:
B & L Products
547 South 20th Street, West
Billings, MT 59102
(800) 445-5254
(541) 956-0210

Kathy Sturm
Harold (the gentleman I spoke to)

The product is called:
The Protector
16 oz. spray bottle: $8.75
1 Gallon refill $29.00
Atomizing spray bottle (recommended) $2.00

This product is NOT silicone based and will not cause any wetting difficulties to the felt reblocks like Scotchguard does. It does not appear to affect the stiffness, or color of the felt after three light coats. I have not had the opportunity to test this product, so please bear that in mind if you order. (This information is for reference only and I will not guarantee the performance of any products.)

There are photos also:


____________________________

Post from COW: Rick 5150

 

[Matt Deckard]

Only hats I've run into that don't taper are still only vintage hats.
I still belive there is some part of the process that is missing to relax the felt so it won't tense up and pull in on itself.

I have hope for this preblocking procedure Graham has talked about. Time will tell.

 

[Andykev]

Very good point.

Matt, good point. My Optimo willow heavyweight did taper upon getting soaked, but it took 5 years to do it.

NONE of my vintage hats have EVER tapered, not my Cavanagh "yard hat" which is really a nice hat, no moth damage, ...just a bit dirty. It is a classy 40's hat. I have soaked it MANY times thru and thru, and it hasn't changed a bit.


I have heard nothing about the "preblocking" you mentioned.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Vintage hats are just better all around. It could be how age effects felt, takes out all the tention so it won't shrink, or it could be just how they are... even the beat up vintage hats I have seen have no taper... that is why I like to tender the idea that there is a missing process in felt making and that could be pre-blocking. What Graham said about it taking tention out and loosening hairs in the felt before final blocking makes some sense to me, put the fur in a final relaxed state then block.

Ask Graham about it, he said it hasn't bee done by anyone in about 50 years, and they were supposed to have a machine for it soon for their next run of hats.

 

[Renderking Fisk]

Can Graham do that "pre-blocking" procedure on pre-existing fedoras?

 

[Fedora]

I knew about this issue already as Rick and I correspond, and I reblocked his Sterling beaver hat. The culprit was the lack of water repellant. It had none added. Since that time, I treated mine with Scotchguard because this winter mine will get wet when I switch to it and pack up the really thin vintage hats that I have been wearing. Now, I want to address this vintage hat question. It is obvious to me that no one that has posted has ever reblocked a vintage hat. I have. About 30 of them over the last year. I have some news that may not surprise you. I do wet reblocks. That is, I saturate the felt in Woolite and water prior to pulling the hat over the block. Listen carefully. Every hat, vintage, or modern felt tapers as soon as it is saturated. I have never had a vintage hat that did not go back to the original state, or close to it, i.e. a tapered cone. Some are more extreme than others, but all taper to some degree. Think about it. A hat starts as a tapered cone. When a hat is completely, and the key word is completely, saturated, it reverts. So, for the folks that got their hat wet, relativity comes into play here. To show you that I am not blowing smoke, send me that untaperable vintage hat and I will send it back to you tapered. And all that I will do is saturate it. To make it interesting let us put a hundred dollar bill on it. My money is good. This is a standing bet, from here on out. I challenge all comers. I know what I am talking about and will lose not one red cent. Now, with that out of the way, the vintage hats were probably oiled at some point in time in the manufacture process. On top of that some were treated with a water repellant treatment. This is what allows the hat to get only partially wet, and therefore still maintain its shape. There isn't anything magical about vintage felt. It was just well made and well treated. So, if you want to extend the life of your hat, after the water repellant treatment is leached out, like Rick's Optimo, retreat it. regards, Fedora

 

[Andykev]

Wow

Is this easy money or foolish gambling? I don't know. I have watched Art block hats, and he saturates the body in live steam, just like Optimo does with their big pulling machine. I think I will post a photo of it.

My vintage Cavanagh got so wet it was dripping like a sponge. I know when felt is soaked thru.

I let it dry on an alumimum hat stretcher, at room temps, but did not "stretch" the hat, ie. it just rested on the stretcher.

I tell you, it is the same: like nothing ever happened. This hat has NOTHING added to it, like Scotchguard. I really think it is extremely high quality felt, that was properly made and formed over 60 years ago.

Some of the hats that are "vintage" may be from the 60's, I don't doubt Fedora. He really does a good job.

I am almost tempted to take my vintage hat to Arts, with digital camera, and we will soak the hat in a bucket of water....then let it dry at room temp. Take photos thru the process. I just worry about the sweatband getting wet (Fedora I assume when you reblock you remove liner, sweat, ribbon, no?) as leather anything does not do well in water.

I really have a hunch the hat will NOT taper. Please, I am not putting anyone down, and by God I am not an expert in any way...I just want to LEARN. I don't have the equipment that Fedora has, and I KNOW Art is almost up to a full blown hat shop (when you get that last shaped block from me )

 

[Fedora]

Yeah, you take the sweat out, strip it down. Like I said, the bet is on if you send it to me. It may be easy money. I just know what I have seen over and over again. The hat will not shrink at the sweatband area, the sizing will remain the same. But, the original shape of a straight sided hat is not straight. It has a taper. The blocking process stretches out the top, so it is not tapered. But, get it saturated and the felt remembers what it was as an infant. Like I said, I got a hundred dollar bill that says it will taper. I know that I won't lose a cent, or I would not make the offer. I have had trouble shrinking down, in size beaver hats, but have never had a hat that would not taper when saturated, to the bone. See, this is the key. You can soak a hat in water until it seems to be saturated, but it is not. On vintage hats, you have to leave it in the solution for hours sometimes to get it wet to the core. If you win, take the money that I give you and have it reblocked. You won't be out a cent. It would be worth the price of admission to me to see a felt that does not remember what it started out as. regards, Fedora

 

[Art Fawcett]

Can I bankroll you on that action fedora?? Boy, this is a sucker bet if I ever saw one!! Fedora, you are absolutely, 100% correct that ANY felt will taper if soaked then NOT put on a block. It reverts to it's original shape: ie: cone. Now, the difference here may be in perception and the manufacturing processes. Vintage hats in general will not taper as much or as quickly, but they WILL taper given enough abuse ( I don't mean to say what you are doing is felt abuse Fedora).
What waterproofing & stiffners etc are used in the process are what make the difference plus the sheer age ( I mean the time it was set in the current block). Given enough water & steam you can make ANY hat go away.

 

[Fedora]

Vintage hats in general will not taper as much or as quickly, but they WILL taper given enough abuse

I agree. The felt was just better made by the old timers. And the perception point is dead on too. You know, I have had some vintage felt that was almost impossible to penetrate to the core with dye. The end result was the sandwich effect. Dyed on the outside, still the original color on the inside. I had to literally keep the hat in the dye bath for days. It took it that long to saturate. So, that hat, in the weather would have went a real long time before it would have tapered naturally. Now, I don't know if this was the felt density, or some sort of waterproofing treatment that was keeping the core dry. It finally succumbed of course and as soon as it did, it got a little taper to it. We all agree, it takes a whole lot longer for vintage felt to taper. I assume it is the combination of denseness and whatever secret recipe the hatter used to treat the felt. regards, Fedora

 

[Renderking Fisk]

Steve, on the Deluxe you sent me... how did you get the felt to un-pucker and swell?

 

[Fedora]

Steve, on the Deluxe you sent me... how did you get the felt to un-pucker and swell?

I am not sure I understand RK. regards, Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

I'll bet both of you that my beaver hat will not taper one hundredth of an inch no matter how wet you get it. It is 100% beaver and quite a vintage piece. Check it out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14065&item=8119260428&rd=1
LOL LOL LOL

Regards to all,

J

 

[Art Fawcett]

James...the photo startled me...reminded me of my first wife, but thats another story...
Your on with the taper bet...anyone have a match?

 

[Wild Root]

Greetings all! Wow, we are really getting serious with this tapering thing. I believe Fedora on this. I feel that he has done it enough times to know what he is talking about.
I mean 30 hats in the last year? I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t have even that many in my collection. And I have collected hats since 1996. Vintage felt is far superior to modern felt! I believe that it would do some tapering but not that much at all. When something that is made of felt and has been blocked the same way by one owner over the course of the time the hat was bought and the time it was laid to rest in the closet which could be say 5 or more years of wear then, it sitting in a box in a closet for say 40 to 50 years? Yeah it would have quite a memory!

Now, I would like to voice my opinion considering testing vintage felt. Ok, if you have a completely trashed fedora, I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m talking a moth eaten battered hopeless wreck of a fedora then, sure give it the works boys! But, if it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s a nice one that you want to strip and soak just to prove a point I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m not impressed. So what if vintage felt does do a little tapering after it is soaked to the bone? All you?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ll have is a stressed out hat that has seen the great depression, a second world war, the atomic age, hippies and the 70?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s. What is there to gain when no one is even out side in the weather long enough to soak a fedora to the core any way. If it keeps its shape for what ever you put it through on a regular basis why try and push the envelope?

The way I see it is that it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s a 60 year old item that is growing in rarity. These hats are NOT being made any more! We can?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t just go through hats like they are growing on a tree some where. There are a number of these things left and once they?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re gone, THEY ARE GONE! I have heard of guys taking a beautiful light gray wide brimmed 40?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s fedora and cutting off inches off the brim, soaking it in brown die, stretching the devil out of it and transforming a classic fedora to an Indy hat. I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t want to offend any one here but I am 100% against such an act. There is absolutely no reason for that in my mind. The original Indy hat was made just for the film! Ford didn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t have a vintage hat. If you want a good looking Indy hat I suggest Optimo, or have Art make you one.

There are plenty of people out there that would love to have just one original fedora to set of their vintage outfit! They would cherish it just the way it is! They are having a horrible time finding one because they are drying up. This vintage hat transformation is not helping the circumstances.

Once again I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m not accusing any one of any thing. I am just voicing my opinion upon things that I have heard about. When I hear of some one doing this to a perfectly good original hat just cause it isn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t Indy looking, it is to me like some one driving a fully original single family owned vintage auto off a cliff. One less in the world is all that goes through my mind. Other things can be restored or fixed, but felt can not regain what is cut off.

My thoughts are my thoughts. And, my feelings are my Feelings. No one has to see it my way; I just hope that we start to see what these wonderful relics of the past truely are. They are a symbol of a bygone era.

Good night, and good luck.

 

[Renderking Fisk]

Hey, I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢M EATING HERE, JAMES!

Fedora?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t know how else to describe it. I have two Akubra Deluxes blocked by two of The Masters (like I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m talking about playing Golf with Jack and Tiger). The one Art did, the felt is tight and puckered. The one you have me, the felt has swelled a bit, it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s floppy while holding it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s shape.

The same fedora manufacturer, same type of felt?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ One was blocked last Friday while the other one was done a year ago or so. The felt on the older one seems to have expanded in all directions slightly and is more floppy.

Sorry if I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m frustrating you guys, I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m at a loss of words on how to describe it.

 

[Renderking Fisk]

WildRoot?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ you and I are on the same page, but I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m not sure about the paragraph. I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m a HUGE advocate of fedora?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s. I wear one everyday and it as a local character it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s my trade marke. Perfect exsample?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ I was at the video store and one of the kids pointed to a Disk Collection and said: ?¢‚Ǩ?ìLook Daddy! That man is dressed like Mr. Fisk!?¢‚Ǩ?

?¢‚Ǩ?ìThat Man?¢‚Ǩ? was Harrison Ford on the Indiana Jones DVD box set.

I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m at a loss to explain why fedora?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s went out of style, something I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ve lamented for a while on other forums. When a vintage fedora is lost, it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s lost forever and we?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re all deminished. Which is why I want to start haunting Antique shops looking for vintage felt and start sending them over to Art.

Simple fact of the matter is, if fedora is taken apart and soaked in either Art or Steve-Fedora?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s solution, there?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s no loss there. If they put the fedora back to it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s original state using the original parts, what?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s the loss?

I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m with you on taking good vintage hats and converting them into something they arnt?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ unless they?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re so far gone there?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s nothing else to do with them.

I hate moderern fashion with a passion that only men and women here on The Lost Pages understands or even shares. Never before has looking ?¢‚Ǩ?ìGood?¢‚Ǩ? looked so bad, and looking Bad never looked so good.

 

[Matt Deckard]

I deffer to Art when it comes to knowledge of taper, he's probably seen more hats than I have seen ants. I still have yet to see one of my vintag hats taper... I have some from the 30's, and as my friends know I wear them in the rain and even roll 'em up. I still get compliments on the straight sides from people used to seing puosely taper shaped 40's hats. The leather band may need to be stretched once in a while, though I never needed to get them reblocked to get the stovepipe shape back into them.

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by Art Fawcett
James...the photo startled me...reminded me of my first wife, but thats another story...
Your on with the taper bet...anyone have a match?

Geez, I think anything will taper a bit of you burn it. LOL Just a bit though.
You guys are beginning to make me wonder. I do have that moth eaten yard hat that might be an interesting experiment on taper. Nothing would be lost if you soaked this hat and checked for taper. I would be willing to let the hat be used to put this argument to rest once and for all but I would want it back blocked even if it is just a yard hat. Uncle Jed does not do my gardening. LOL
It is a Dobbs fifteen and very dense felt so it would probably take a while to soak it through. The moth eaten parts might help a bit though. What do you all think?
I am with Wild Root concerning vintage hat "killings" though. I can't even throw away a moth eaten hat so you know I have some commitment to these old felts.

Regards to all,

J

P.S. Ren, I did not realize you would be eating when I posted my genuine untaperable beaver hat. Sorry.

 

[Fedora]

I am the guilty one for converting vintage hats into Indy fedoras. I am not bothered by the conversion. Felt is made through the use of water, heat and agitation and pressure. To steam a hat to reblock, or to wet it, does not harm the felt at all. Peas and carrots. I always use the original sweat and liner, but I do change out the ribbons. What I end up with is a very high quality Indy fedora, accurate to the era of this fictional character, and it goes longer between reblocks as it was better felt. I am glad that you deffer to Art, Matt. And it makes me feel good that he usually backs me up on my assertions. Fedora