Grammar Geeks

[skinnychik]

Maybe you've read "Eats, Shoots & Leaves."
Maybe you're just a dork.

Are there others out there who feel the drive to correct the writing/speech of others? I admit to applauding as I watched the Target employee replace the old "8 items or less" with an "8 items or fewer" sign. I've deleted apostrophes from signs advertising "Book's"...using a red permanent marker.

Here's your chance to vent about your own linguistic pet peeves, and to share with us the blatent displays of ignorance that you've seen in print around your town.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

My most biggest peeve, like ever...

...One Nation under God indivisible. With Liberty and Justice for all.

NOT...One Nation (comma) Under God (comma) with Liberty and Justice for all.

That's like my most biggest peeve that really peeves me off, like. Second only to that 'Louie Louie' song; NOT 'Louie (comma) Louie'!!!! Geesh (like)!

Like Dixon, Cannon

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

You asked for it

Are there others out there who feel the drive to correct the writing/speech of others?

Only in rare occasions, because I know just too much about language and languages to fall for purism.

Exceptions include correcting the purists' messages.

In this case:
1. You quote only a title ("Eats, Shoots & Leaves"), so the full stop should be after the closing quote.
2. Purists demand the word 'eight' is written out. (You might have taken this over from the original, of course.)
3. Now to the three dots:
3.1 They are a sign of its own (…), not to be written as three independent full stops (...), and may be produced on most computers by holding Alt and typing 0133 on the number keypad on the right, or in M$ Word by holding AltGr and typing a full stop.
3.2 It should be followed by a blank.
3.3 Here it is erroneously used as a dash anyway, so it's futile to discuss if there is a blank missing in front.
4. 'Blatant' isn't written with an E.
5. 'Chick' is written with a C in front of the K.

replace the old "8 items or less" with an "8 items or fewer" sign.

Both are correct and make sense.
"Eigth items or less" (than eight items) - 'less' refers to the whole of "eight items".
"Eight items or fewer" (than eight) - we haven't left the topic of items and are discussing the number of those.

 

["Doc" Devereux]

... And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I'm happy to let somebody else worry about my grammar and punctuation when I'm working. Sub- and Copy-Editors are a blessing to the world, and are never held in sufficiently high regard.

Only in rare occasions, because I know just too much about language and languages to fall for purism.

Exceptions include correcting the purists' messages.

Mister Cohen, you are a very bad man.

3. Now to the three dots:
3.1 They are a sign of its own (…), not to be written as three independent full stops (...), and may be produced on most computers by holding Alt and typing 0133 on the number keypad on the right, or in M$ Word by holding AltGr and typing a full stop.

Not on my laptop, sadly. Thus I am forced to use three uspaced full stops in place of an ellipsis, which is perfectly alright by the Oxford University Press' stlye guide. There is also an issue of character coding, since to my knowledge there is no standardised HTML (or other cross-platform) character for the ellipsis.

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

Sure, with the possibilities of computers, typography was shifted to the writer's sphere. M-dashes vs N-dashes, full blanks vs. partial blanks, lower and upper quotation marks - now we're supposed to take care of all that all alone.

Anyway, if Skinnychik had put in some decent blunders, I shouldn't have been forced to point out these petty things. Go complain with her!

Concerning the ellipses and other such signs, you could always open the character map, but that might be some unreasonable trouble for three dots….

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Maybe you've read "Eats, Shoots & Leaves."
Maybe you're just a dork.

Are there others out there who feel the drive to correct the writing/speech of others? I admit to applauding as I watched the Target employee replace the old "8 items or less" with an "8 items or fewer" sign. I've deleted apostrophes from signs advertising "Book's"...using a red permanent marker.

Here's your chance to vent about your own linguistic pet peeves, and to share with us the blatent displays of ignorance that you've seen in print around your town.

If it's business signage or professional situation, yes, I find it to be an annoyance and will do my best to politely and professionally correct the error. I've worked as a copy editor but even then I always had a second set of eyes read my final version over. We all make mistakes. If it's someone other than immediate family I will never correct them; that would be rude. I'm more concerned about being courteous than grammatically correct. I've also learned in my years that some of the wisest people I've known have been rough around the edges and can't spell for, um, sugar.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I've deleted apostrophes from signs advertising "Book's"...using a red permanent marker.

I wanted to ask as a follow-up question: Would you consider maybe using a post-it note, dry erase marker as opposed to a permanent one, or talk to the manager next time? As a business owner I'd hate to have someone deface my property because of an error, but I always appreciate someone bringing it to my attention.

 

[Radioflyer]

Through the years I've found that the best way to make sure everyone reads my memos posted on the bulletin board, is to make spelling and grammar mistakes in it. Folks will go out of their way to deface it to show my grammatical shortcomings...so it gets read.

I'm a radio commercial copywriter by profession and have been for thirty years. I write for the ear, not the eye. The two styles are radically different. But it gets funny when clients correct my scripts to make them grammatically correct (for the eye.) I have to give them a lecture....

rf

 

[Senator Jack]

In my latest column over at The Fedora Chronicles, I listed national holidays/events that I'd like to see. One of them is:

National Is/Are Awareness Day - A day for all highly paid broadcast reporters and anchors to reacquaint themselves with the correct singular/plural usage of the linking verbs is and are.

Poor usage by the average speaker doesn't annoy me nearly as much as that by someone who is paid to speak.

This grammar thread has surfaced a few times now, and while I always find it an interesting topic for discussion, it tends to get closed down because members start correcting each other. Perhaps if we're careful this time - if we re-read our replies before posting - we can actually keep it going.

Kind regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Radioflyer: Head to Nick's billiard hall. On the back wall of the stage area there's an excellent example of miserable grammar - in six foot high letters. I don't recall what it is, but i had a grand laugh at it the last time i was in there.

The preponderance of misplaced apostrophes has made me give up. And the miserable editing of scientific journals. A large fraction (larger than ye'd think) of scientific articles are rendered unreadable through lack of editing. Not only bad grammar, but an apparent lack of grasp of the basics of sentence construction.

This is all, in my view a symptom of lack of reading at an early age.

LEARN BY READING

...

bk

...

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

National Is/Are Awareness Day - A day for all highly paid broadcast reporters and anchors to reacquaint themselves with the correct singular/plural usage of the linking verbs is and are.

Keep in mind, though, that usage might be non-uniform with collective nouns. Ex.: 'family' tends to go with a plural in British English while in American English, it depends if the family is seen as a whole or as a group of individuals.

What types of cases did you think of? Right now, only collective nouns come to my mind, apart from clearly substandard or dialect speech.

(Pun alert) This field isn't always easy. For the second person singular, it's an art. :eusa_doh:

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

the miserable editing of scientific journals.

Right, and not only scientific journals, but other printed matter as well. I'm afraid this is because so much can be done at the computer, and publishers don't employ readers anymore. Formerly, even highlighting by italics fonts (actually cursive typefaces) had to be indicated by clumsy underlining, so there had to be someone who cared about making a manuscript into something readable. Orthography and sometimes style checks were just included.

The problem with learning from reading is that more and more reading happens with stuff on the 'net. (Actually a good development that people read more.) Andwe al kno how careless and casual pple are there and how, fast the SENDButton is hit, arent we?

 

[Senator Jack]

Typical errors on broadcast news:

'There's people who need your help.'

'If you want tickets to the Fifty-Cent show, there are none to be had.'

Ad nauseum


Regards,

SJ

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

None: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language says

the word has been used as both a singular and a plural noun from Old English onward​

There's people: Well, people, in principle, is a noun in the singular, even if collective. Nevertheless, the same issue is there with words like guys: There's guys (who) need your help. The actual explanation is rather that it's one of many cases where a former regular construction turns into a fixed idiomatic expression. I don't usually judge, but people might consider this one of the main ways of naturally enriching a language from within.

Apart from that, at the moment, this usage seems to me to be substandard, a different register of the language rather than an error.

 

[Senator Jack]

There's people: Well, people, in principle, is a noun in the singular, even if collective.

That's a tough sell, Shaul-Ike. I believe 'people', in its singular sense, is now relegated to discussions in anthropology. Clearly, 'There's people who need your help,' is quite different from "There is a people that needs your help.' As far as idioms go, yes, 'It's me' sounds better than 'It is I', (punctuation here?) but to my ear, 'There's five guys' has always sounded klunky.

The same goes for 'none'. Yes, Fowler does state that it can be used with plural forms - 'None have passed in their test' as opposed to the klunkier 'None has passed in his or her test' - but also suggests that singular forms be used where possible. Since it is very possible to say 'If you want Fifty-Cent tickets, there is none,' I only expect the broadcasters to follow that rule.

Certainly, language changes, but I believe like anything else it should change for the better. Substandard usage by the media is just promoting an acceptable form of laziness.

We'll continue this later. Off to work now.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[scotrace]

Former Radio Guy

But it gets funny when clients correct my scripts to make them grammatically correct (for the eye.) I have to give them a lecture....

rf

"LOOK FOR ROD'S TRANSMISSION HEAVEN AT FOUR OH THREE WEST SEVENTH AVENUE."

I used to have clients grab the script and start crossing out spelled numbers, and ask why all caps...

Radioflyer, can you begin speaking, and stop exactly thirty seconds later, without looking at a watch?

 

[db5zx]

¬?¬?¬?wow¬?¬?¬?

For me, this discussion is really interesting. Not only because I am not a native speaker (I am German), but also because I majored in English linguistics in college and am fascinated by the English language and the torture some people subject it to (and that from a guy who believes that - at least in the spoken form - there are no errors but only substandard varieties). I can definately and safely say that I know more about the English language than more than 95% of the German population, if not the non-English speaking world, but still I am fascinated everytime I get into discussions like this and can learn more about my favorite language from its (or her? ) native speakers.

That said, keep the discussion going!

Regards,
Jens

 

[Baron Kurtz]

'There's five guys' has always sounded klunky.

It's clunky, but easier to push across the palate than there're. The same issue - though not a grammatical one - holds for the word mirror (Thinks: mirror or meer. How does one pronounce it?). R following R necessitates some rolling. A rolled R is not an easy sound to make. Therefore some descend to There's. Much easier and no embarrassed mangling of the rolled R.

bk

 

[Braxton36]

I love this subject too. But I'm not stepping in this particular puddle.

I will say, though, that I think common courtesy requires a tight lip and a capped pen when encountering an error unless it is made by an intimate.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

but also because I majored in English linguistics in college and am fascinated by the English language and the torture some people subject it to (and that from a guy who believes that - at least in the spoken form - there are no errors but only substandard varieties).

Hurrah! Another Linguist here.

Yes, Having gone to a functional linguistics school, I have a more difficult time correcting things when in a non-business context. Language changes, and those changes are dictated over time by the people who speak the language, and not by some committee.

If we all always did things by the 'book' in language, no language change would occur.....old english anyone?