Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'The Powder Room' started by LizzieMaine, Apr 30, 2014.
Alice, you are making me rethink my no answer. I'm constantly around more men than women and I'm comfortable with it. I didn't give thought to ladies that aren't in the same type of environment. If more ladies will be comfortable posting without the men, than I say "yes".
Before signing off for the night, I want to encourage every Lounge woman who hasn't voted on this issue to do so. The decision made here one way or the other will shape the future of the Powder Room, and as participants here your voices are essential to our making an informed decision on the sort of Powder Room you, the members, want. You, and only you, will make this decision.
To expand on my YES: I could care less if men read or "peek" in the Ladies areas, and I certainly could care less if they had a Men Only posting area (probably wouldn't even notice it), but for me personally I'm one of the women who have stopped posting as much because of the overbearing posts made by men in here. I used to post in many different areas and then just began limiting myself to the ladies areas. THEN, along came threads being dominated and "debated" by men and I logged off of here for a while.
When it's just us ladies, I find we are very supporting and accepting of each other. We appreciate our many different levels of vintage, we don't care about tattoos or green hair, we don't care if someone isn't 24/7 1938 -- but have no problem if someone is! We just always seemed more supporting of each other.
I know a lot of my FB friends are former loungers who don't post anymore for pretty much the same reason -- overbearing attitudes by men posters. They may even return if they knew there was an area where they don't have to worry about getting their appearances insulted.
That's exactly the kind of atmosphere we want to create -- and maintain -- here. I want to emphasize that this is not any kind of an "anti-male" initiative, either. I have had a wave of PMs in the last twenty-four hours from men of the Lounge, real upstanding men who assure me that they stand with us in our efforts to improve the atmosphere of this place -- not just the PR, but Lounge-wide. And to a man they tell me they have no trouble at all with the idea of making the PR women-only. They tell me they wouldn't feel excluded, or persecuted, or singled out. There's been a lot of public fulmination in the other thread, so I wanted to assure the members here that those men don't speak for all the Lounge men.
Whatever decision is made, though, the days of the "Old Boy's Club" atmosphere here are numbered.
I vote yes.
A reminder that I'm going to leave this thread open for voting for a week -- it'll close next Thursday at 6pm Eastern time, so if this is an issue that concerns you, and as a Powder Room user it should certainly concern you, please be sure to post your vote before then. We're doing this publicly, rather than as a secret ballot, so there can be absolutely no doubt on anyone's part that whatever we do is truly the will of the membership and not just an edict of managment.
If you have friends with a Lounge account who haven't heard about this thread, please tip them off. Every woman's vote is important.
I agree with everything Amy Jeanne said, and feel the same. I just to check in nearly every day, but found some of the "traditional" comments by male posters really offensive to my women's lib thinking, so came back less and less. Whenever I do come back, I still like reading the Powder Room most, but am often put off again. I also know a few previous regular members who left because if this, and it's a shame.
At the end of the day, I like vintage clothes, style, and history, but not necessarily the attitudes towards gender from 60+ years ago, and I felt at times that there wasn't really a space on the Lounge free from that (expectation that fashion and attitudes go hand in hand). Not sure I expressed this very well, but I would love a space to just enjoy vintage without feeling that the online world is also male dominated.
The PR threads are moderated quite well. I've a appreciated the links and photos that the guys have provided and rolled my eyes at some of the comments made by the men too. And when the guys get rolling on a thread, it can become "man centeric" quickly. Also, at any given time, there can be 4 times a many guests viewing the PR as members. They might not be making comments, but can certainly learn a lot about the ladies from their posts and photos and can also capture those photos and snark about them on other sites. Still, I vote No on keeping the guys from posting. (But I won't shed any tears if the majority and moderators make it women only.)
At the end of the second day of voting the tally stands at 7 members voting yes in favor of closing the PR to men, 1 member voting a qualified yes, and 7 members voting no.
Clearly this issue is going to be decided by a close vote. Every vote is important, and I want to assure every member who has commented along with her vote that her comments have been brought directly to the attention of the Lounge's top management. Your opinions *are* being heard, and will continue to be heard. Whatever the outcome of this vote, those opinions *will* influence future decisions to be made at the Lounge. Our goal is to provide a safe, comfortable environment for *all* members with an interest in any aspect of the Era.
I'm hardly a regular poster, obviously, so I hesitate to weigh in. But I've followed the Lounge for years and years, well before I signed up, and still regularly check threads every three or four days or so, sometimes signing in, sometimes not. But this general topic has and does affect my participation so I figure I should go ahead and comment...
Yes, I've found some of the male members and their comments very off-putting to witness. Small percentage, yes, but it's a consistent presence. Some of it is the comments themselves and some of it is the personalities that are a little...overbearing and overwhelming....in my opinion. I don't like conflict and and avoid it in real life, so the idea of posting regularly has felt like putting a target on my back. I figure if this was a real physical lounge, I wouldn't want to hang with some of the company there, so why would I do that virtually, even considering the superficial interests in common? It just wouldn't be enjoyable. So.
Now I have to be honest - I have other issues that prevent my full participation (including my past inability towards time management when I get involved on forums and my recent desire to reduce time on-line overall) and so I can't swear that I'll suddenly pitch a tent here and never leave if this becomes a Women Only space. But I have to say, it wouldn't hurt either. And I might not be the only one that just lurks around, even as a member, not wanting to expose ourselves to the fray. So I'll be curious to see if fellow lurkers weigh in, too, and whether that would feel like a more hospitable environment to them.
So, for what it's worth, or not: YES. Please. And thanks, Lizzie, for bringing it up.
I vote against closing the PR to men unless the topic is sensitive. In some cases male comments add to the discussion (in some).
I agree that many of the photos and questions men have posted here have been quite useful and interesting. For that reason alone I'd be sorry to see all areas of the powder room closed to all men. Unfortunately, those specific threads are also the ones that are frequently enlivened by sixteenth-century reactonaries.
For me, the core problem is that these poor dears don't even seem to know that they're being offensive or that their posts reflect a political point of view (which I believe is prohibited on the Lounge.) The fact that they're so surprised leads me to doubt that they can learn and change. Therefore, I'd vote "no" on exclusion only if the rude posters could be shown the door and / or possibly even temporarily sanctioned in some way.
Lizzie and Lady Day, I feel you both do an excellent job of monitoring this part of the forum. My question to both of you is: would you be able / willing / have the time / have the technical authority to impose sanctions on the poor things? Or would that just create a lot of extra work for you?
I'd be comfortable voting "no" on exclusion so long as LD and Lizzie felt that they could spare the time and energy to show the door to ungentlemanly transgressors. If that's too much work and effort, then I would be happy giving my proxy vote to Lizzie: you decide how much work you can put into this and use my vote in whatever way seems best to you.
To be honest, one of the problems is that dealing with this situation has become somewhat akin to trying to bail out a leaky boat with a Dixie Cup. There are men who take their admonition and learn by it, but there are many others who are convinced it's their God-given right to post wherever and however they choose.
In the eight years LD and I've been bartending, the overwhelming majority of problems in this section of the Lounge have been caused by men. There have been occasional disputes between women that have flared up to require action on our part, but the overwhelming majority of the times there have been problems in here, there has been a man at the back of it. We've always had some tough-hearted gals in here who've been willing to step in and stand up in the face of such things when LD or I haven't happened to be online at the moment, but a lot of those women have left. I won't run down a roll call of names here, but if you go back thru old PR threads you'll see a lot of people who aren't posting here anymore. A lot of them have acknowledged to us that the reason they've left is that they've gotten tired of dealing with crap from men, both outside the PR and actually in here.
We have tried to be good soldiers, LD and I, and we've tried to stand up for the Lounge whenever its good name has been challenged. But I have to admit to all of you here, we too are getting tired of that. There is a culture here that nobody wants to admit is here, but you can ignore it all you want and that won't make it go away. There are men here who believe the Lounge is theirs, and that if women want to participate here, they need to do it on *their* terms. It's taken us both a long time to really articulate what this problem is, but I think we've both come to see what a lot of women have been telling us for years. We may not be able to control what goes on in the rest of the Lounge, but as long as we're here, we're going to do our damndest to keep that problem out of here. Even if the vote fails, there *will*be changes in the way we approach the presence of men in the Powder Room.
I am not going to come out and formally endorse or oppose the proposal now under consideration, although I will say that over the course of the past few days my views are evolving from what I posted in the other thread in the OB. If it doesn't pass, I'm pretty sure there's going to be more work for us to do, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. We may need another full-fledged Bartender or two. Or, perhaps, I might just go ahead and ask some of the more trusted, long-time members to serve as unofficial deputies who could report to us when there's a problem we haven't yet noticed. I don't know yet. If it *does* past, I'm sure there'll be plenty of extra work as well, but of a different nature. Again, I don't know yet. We're thinking about setting up a sort of anteroom to the PR where men would have limited posting privileges for the purpose of asking questions or posting links, but if the PR does go women-only, and if such a thing is established no woman who doesn't want to interact with the male population here would be forced to do so in order to enjoy the PR.
We aren't just considering a change in the PR. LD and I are trying, behind the scenes, to make people understand that it isn't just isolated incidents of annoyance or harassment that are the root of the problem. They're just the leaves on top of a tree that's grown from a deep and long-entrenched root here, and it's that root we're trying to get at. All of you who have voted, and all of you who have commented here are helping us to do that, and we thank you for your support, and your confidence in us.
I may change my vote considering some of the rather horrifying responses by "gentlemen" in a thread in the observation post!
I've received the following message from Scotrace and Nathan Flowers, who are the Head Bartenders and chief administrators of The Fedora Lounge, and they've asked me to share it with the women of the Powder Room:
As you can see, this vote has the full, official backing of the Lounge. What you say here, how you vote here, will be final. Please vote with confidence that your voices are being heard.
It's very respectful of you to ask us to vote, but we are all guests here. Based upon the fact that to continue to allow men to post in the PR means excessive moderating on your end, and you have been doing this on a volunteer basis for many years, I think that is reason enough to make it FL "law." You matter and without quality bartenders the FL would not be the same. As for voting, I think some members may feel intimidated to vote publicly either way, so I go back to my original point.