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Discussion in 'The Powder Room' started by LizzieMaine, Apr 30, 2014.
I couldn't find it. Was it removed altogether?
Me neither. I started reading a few days ago and on page 4 it told me that I had no privileges to read the thread and then it had disappeared!
It's a tough question…….I know it has always been informally for women, but if some of the guys ain't behavin', then rather than spend the time policing the forum and overloading the already hard working bartenders with oversexed menfolk I have to go against how my gut feels about equality and go with my head. If it was a paid forum and bartenders were paid, it might be different, but right now, my vote is:
It was sent to Fedora Lounge purgatory by the administration. Suffice it to say that it got pretty roasty toward the end.
Yes, women only.
I am glad it did get sent to purgatory. I'm sorry I directed people to it- it was closed but still there as of last night. I didn't check back this morning when I was working on my post.
Without rehashing it too much, it got the worst I've ever witnessed it around here. It was bad.
I obviously didn't get that far into reading it, but I don't understand at all why the menfolk of the lounge would even care all that much? There are so many threads on here that are open to all, and if they decided to have a men-only area to discuss things country-club style, I really couldn't care less, as I never venture into those threads in the first place. The vast majority of male posters also don't really comment in the PR, so probably wouldn't even notice if it was women only.
Nevermind having a huge online row about it...
As I've said, the vast majority of men in the Lounge have nothing to do with the PR, or for that matter, even the common areas. If you go into the Hat rooms or Outerwear you'll find hundreds of names you never see anywhere else. These are men who are here to discuss hats or leather jackets or what not, and have no interest in getting mixed up in Lounge politics, and they have never been a problem in the PR.
The problem has always been caused by a very aggressive minority of the men -- the type who feel that they can post anywhere they damn well please, the type who feel that women are here to be flirted with rather than listened to, or the type who just like to come into a thread and stir the pot. However many of these types we get rid of -- and we've tossed many of them over the years -- there's always more coming along to take their place, just because they think they *can.* And when you tell them they *can't*, well, that's when they get obstreperous. Especially when we don't back down.
The vast majority of the men said they couldn't care less, including some men whom have contributed content to the PR. Some of the men who were the most vocal about opposing it I've never seen post in the PR. Or at least they haven't posted useful things that I can remember. The vast majority of the men I think are supportive of whatever we choose to do and are more upset it has come to this than anything else.
I have things to say about what happened in that thread towards the end, but I am not fond of rehashing closed threads. I figure it was closed for a reason and don't want to start more headaches in this thread. Either way, it is a shame. To be honest, I would like to see some of the perpetrators of such behavior sanctioned rather than closing the PR to men (something St. Louis suggested), but I think closing the PR is the only quick and clean solution. The atmosphere, as Lizzie mentioned much earlier, runs pretty deep. A few bad apples are spoiling it for everyone.
I don't post in FL much any more either, and I am long time member too. I would be the first to say that in my 'actual' life that many of my closest friends are male, but they are not sexist or misogynistic in any way, unlike some of the men here. Most men at FL are NOT like that of course, but there definatley seems to be a 'boys club' attitude in the FL, even amongst some of the moderators, which I find extremely disturbing. There are those that have even used the FL to try to lure women and when those ladies have complained, NOTHING has been done to ban those users from the board or from using PMs.
So my YES is based on several things. Not because I don't like the input from the men here that truly are gentlemen and just love to talk vintage (those guys are awesome), but because sadly, there is a small group of men who still what to use our sections of the board as a place to put forward their sexist attitudes and to 'look for new meat' so to speak.
I would be happy to make the women's thread still open for viewing to all, but limiting the posts to women. I hate that it has come to this, but if the mods don't take some action soon, they will lose more and more people.
I vote yes to a "Women's Only" area for the FL. Even more importantly, however, I want to know why the FL is not doing more when members come to admin to report sexually inappropriate or abusive behaviour of other members sent via private messages. What does it take here to have someone who is clearly using the FL as a hunting ground STOPPED?
Damn, now I really want to read that OB thread!
I lurk more than I post, and I'll say it's a sign that the Bartenders do such a great job of nixing nasty posts in a timely manner because I've never actually seen any of those types of posts in here myself. But I understand that they do happen and make others very uncomfortable, and I understand moreso now after having read this thread.
I always thought that men were not supposed to post in the PR, but were allowed to in Beauty? I see the PR as more of a place for women to post on things of a more intimate or sensitive nature, and Beauty was more for technical questions - lipstick and hair and whatnot. I've seen questions from men like "I need your advice on buying my wife a dress" and others of a similar nature, in what forum would questions like these be posed if not in Beauty? And what of transgendered members, would they still be allowed to post in the PR too?
I vote yes to making PR women only, and leave Beauty open to everyone.
I think a section where they can post is an excellent idea. For example, I enjoy reading GHD's posts in the sewing thread; his wife makes lovely clothes.
Perhaps there can be a parlor for socializing but we then have a girls-only area where we serve the hooch and lipstick?
Would that make to much work on the weary bartenders?
I haven't been here for a considerable time, but got the email to encourage votes. Good call! I would usually say No to something like this, on the basis of equality, ie the gents should have somewhere exclusive. However, I get the impression from reading this thread that there are issues, and that more than a few ladies are uncomfortable with the less gentlemanly comments to the point that they exclude themselves from taking part. As has been said, everyone should feel safe and welcome, and as there is (as noted above) extensive scope for mixed conversations in the lounge, I feel I have to give a Yes vote. That will unfortunately lose some marvellous input from the real gentlemen of the Lounge who have some great things to say (viz a viz VintageTink above), and that will be missed, but for ladies of the Lounge to feel as comfortable as possible in this one area, I have to vote Yes.
The most important thing to do is to is for the woman involved to come forward and report to LD or me via PM exactly what has happened. Come to us before approaching any other Bartender. As much as you might want to delete the PMs in question, it would be very helpful for us to have them as evidence, and if you could forward them to us, we'd have direct proof of what's going on which we could then lay before the administration of the Lounge. LD and I are the only two women among the bartenders, but we take these matters very seriously, and we will be relentless in investigating such complaints.
As we've said, we're considering a "Parlor" or an anteroom where men would have limited posting privileges to submit questions, share links, and do such things as that. We're considering a number of options for restructuring the women's section of the Lounge, which are still in the discussion stage. Personally, I see Beauty as a subforum of the Powder Room, and as such if the PR goes women-only, so would Beauty. The Parlor or whatever we call it would be separate from either of these areas.
Transgendered members have always been welcome in the PR. I know we've had at least two in the past who have been open about their status, and no member has ever expressed any misgivings to us about their presence. I don't see any need for that to change.
Being new here, I realize that my voice probably doesn't matter much on this matter, (And it shouldn't) but I do find this a good idea.
While it would be sad to lose input from a lot of nice members, I think it would be nice to have a place of peace and quiet, so to speak. It would however be nice to have somewhere one could discuss less manly things while still allowing the gents to participate. (As mentioned before, if someone wants advice on getting a present for a lady, or similar cases.)