Quality vs Price...is there a compromise?

[Crinkle]

Afternoon Ladies and gents,

I'm in the market for a new flight jacket, in brown cow or goat. I've been looking at several makers, and noticed there are some fairly big price different. I've narrowed my decision down to Johnson, Langlitz and Aero, based on the talks I have had and things I have read, but the price differences are the main factor.

More or less one maker is about $200 less than Aero and another maker is $400 less.

I have the money to spend and want quality....but what gives me pause is that for all the makers I listed, there is nothing but acclaim saying how underrated they are, what amazing work they do, etc etc. There is nothing indicating the quality of one is less than the other.

What I would like to know if anyone can quantify the quality difference, or what I get forgoing with a more expensive maker. Is there a compromise or tradeoff with the less expensive makers? Is it to do with the quality of the hides or perhaps something else?

 

[ButteMT61]

Hello and welcome.
I find your choice of those males odd since you're looking for a flight jacket.
What model?
How important is authenticity?
What is your budget?
Have you considered a used authentic jacket?

 

[andyfalzon]

Johnson and Langlitz make flying jackets?

There is nothing indicating the quality of one is less than the other.

It depends on how you define quality. How do you?

What I would like to know if anyone can quantify the quality difference...

Sure can.

 

[Highwaymanman]

I beg to differ Butte, those males are choice indeed.

 

[Forrest]

Do Johnson and Langlitz make flight jackets? Anyway, Aero is top dollar for sure. If you're going for some degree of accuracy, but don't want to spend a thousand dollars, I really like the look of Bill Kelso's house A-2. It's their cheapest offering, and looks to be very well made. Would run about $500.

If you don't care about accuracy at all, I love the vintage L.L. Bean Flying Tiger A-2 jackets from the late 70s through the 90s. These were military cut, made in the US, dark brown goat, one piece backs, numbered sizes, very well made, etc. These can be found for next to nothing on ebay. Just watch out that you don't get a newer one. They suck. Made who knows where, cut poorly and baggy, etc.

As to differences in quality... no way I can answer that, all makers you mention produce excellent work and have good reputations.

 

[Fanch]

Don't overlook Gibson & Barnes in San Diego, keeping in mind that some of their jackets are sized big. I plan to P/U an AN-J-3 at G&B next month while I am in San Diego.

 

[Grayland]

If you're going for some degree of accuracy, but don't want to spend a thousand dollars, I really like the look of Bill Kelso's house A-2. It's their cheapest offering, and looks to be very well made. Would run about $500.

I have the house BK A-2. It's a nicely made, nice fitting jacket.

 

[ButteMT61]

I beg to differ Butte, those males are choice indeed.

Read my reply. FLIGHT JACKETS. I would not put any with the exception of Aero in the flight jacket top makers. And Aero makes awesome jackets, just not noted for the most accurate.
All three make a great jacket. I've only owned Aero of those three so I can't say the others are as good, better, or the same.
Hence my questions.

 

[Jeff M]

Yes, there is a difference.
First of all, what kind of "flight jacket" are you talking about? I assume leather.
"Accurate" reproductions, or "roughly based on"?
A2? G1? M422? "Irvin"?
I own leather jackets made by Langlitz and Johnson's. They are more known for their motorcycle jackets...not the first makers that come to mind when I think of "flight jackets". (I didn't even know they offered versions of "flight jackets".)
Langlitz is a great company...but just couldn't get my custom ordered Cafe Racer measurements right. Leather quality is fine for a motorcycle jacket...I wouldn't want it on an A2 or G1 however.
Johnson's is local for me. Nice shop. Again, motorcycle jackets more their forte. Haven't really seen leather there that I'd consider for a "flight jacket".

For "reproducton" flight jackets...
I've own/owned "flight jackets"by Aero, , Eastman, Good Wear, Gibson and Barnes, Superior Flight Apparel, Bill Kelso.


There are differences in the quality of leather used, the overall authenticity of design, fit, quality of manufacture and customer service between the different makers.

To my mind Good Wear Leather is making the best A2's and M422's available today. Custom made to your measurements. Top quality leather. A pleasure to deal with. Draw backs are long wait and cost.

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/index.html


Eastman Leather makes some very nice "flight jackets". They do offer "custom made" option, but you are not able to return it if it doesn't fit. If you are standard size for a 1940's airman and can order their "off the rack" jackets, not a problem. If you have a more modern frame (ie,, heavy set)....it can be an issue.

http://www.eastmanleather.com/

Superior Flight Apparel is a small production company that makes wonderful jackets. Doesn't have the selection of contracts that the others do, but they make a quality custom fit A2 from top end leather and are great to deal with.

http://superiorjackets.com/

Aero makes very nice jackets. I lean more towards their civilian models rather than their A2's however.
They do offer custom sized jackets...but at least as of a year ago, their A2 fits were a bit tighter than I like, and though their leather is top end, I prefer that offered by other makers for their A2's. If I were thinking of an Aero A2 I'd put the money aside, place a deposit for a Good Wear and save up over the waiting period for a Good Wear.

I've dealt with Bill Kelso for over a year now. Have not had the best of luck with them so far.

If looking for a more a somewhat more economical new "flight jacket", I'd say check out Gibson and Barnes.
Very good quality. Well made. Nice to deal with.

http://www.gibson-barnes.com/

 

[Highwaymanman]

Read my reply. FLIGHT JACKETS. I would not put any with the exception of Aero in the flight jacket top makers. And Aero makes awesome jackets, just not noted for the most accurate.
All three make a great jacket. I've only owned Aero of those three so I can't say the others are as good, better, or the same.
Hence my questions.

Simmer down there sir! I agree with your questions absolutely. It was just my observation of your use of the word males instead of makes.

 

[Crinkle]

This is the Langlits flight jacket I was looking at - http://www.langlitz.com/flight-jacket/

And the Aero flight jacket I also liked - http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/product-detail.php?id=90

Budget isn't too much an issue, or to put it another way Aero seem to be the most expensive and I'm willing to pay their prices...

Not concerned with authenticity I just like the style.

If I was going to pay a lot more I would just wonder what causes the price increase. If it were mainly due to the leather, or workmanship or what? Langlitz, Johnson etc seem to be held in equally high regard from what I can tell.

Jeff - Thankyou for the extra links, I will check them out.

As I don't ride a motorcycle at all, could you clarify a bit on what you mean with some motorcycle leathers not being suitable for flight jackets?

Reading some of the threads on this board, Johnson and Langlitz etc all seemed to have impeccable customerservice, excellent leather and make sure to get the fit right. i.e. they all seem to be in the highest tier. So would that leave the workman ship and leather they use as reasons the prices are cheaper than Aero?

 

[ButteMT61]

Simmer down there sir! I agree with your questions absolutely. It was just my observation of your use of the word males instead of makes.

Oh shi*. Sorry man. My bad :eusa_doh:
I ruined a perfectly good joke.

 

[ButteMT61]

Good posts by others here.
A proper moto jacket requires safety first. Many jackets are not up to a fall/slide. That's why you wear it, not to just look cool.
If the "flight" and "moto" is for style only, then get what you LIKE. Otherwise you'll not wear it.
If you see a jacket you like by a known good maker, then you're 90% there.
The rest is details like color, hide, lining, etc.

 

[Crinkle]

Thanks, that what I was trying to understand.

I was looking at an Indiana Jones style jacket before I settled on the flight jacket style.

I just wasn't sure what the extra cost was for with some makers. So the difference would mainly be for the hides used?

 

[ButteMT61]

Hides. Linings. Hardware (zips, buckles, etc) skill of the workers.
The only jackets around here that uniformly get snide remarks are the fashion brands that charge insane amounts for "poseur" jackets. More money is not always better. But this is the place to get the right info from real owners and wearers. This was the best step you took in picking out a new jacket

 

[Worf]

This is the Langlits flight jacket I was looking at - http://www.langlitz.com/flight-jacket/

And the Aero flight jacket I also liked - http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/product-detail.php?id=90

Budget isn't too much an issue, or to put it another way Aero seem to be the most expensive and I'm willing to pay their prices...

Not concerned with authenticity I just like the style.

If I was going to pay a lot more I would just wonder what causes the price increase. If it were mainly due to the leather, or workmanship or what? Langlitz, Johnson etc seem to be held in equally high regard from what I can tell.

Jeff - Thankyou for the extra links, I will check them out.

As I don't ride a motorcycle at all, could you clarify a bit on what you mean with some motorcycle leathers not being suitable for flight jackets?

Reading some of the threads on this board, Johnson and Langlitz etc all seemed to have impeccable customerservice, excellent leather and make sure to get the fit right. i.e. they all seem to be in the highest tier. So would that leave the workman ship and leather they use as reasons the prices are cheaper than Aero?

I own a used version of the Langlitz you're speaking of. Great jacket, as other's have said though I DON'T consider it a "flight jacket" per se... more of a motorcycle jacket in a military style. Don't get me wrong, it's a fine piece of work but NOT what I'd buy if I were looking for a flight jacket off the bat. There's lots of makers out there from the sublime to the ridiculous. From $195.00 Chinese and Indian knock-offs (U.S. Wings) to $1,500 dollar top of the liners like Good Wear. It all depends on how much accuracy you want, how much you're willing to spend and how long you're willing to wait.

Worf

 

[GHT]

Thanks, that what I was trying to understand.

I was looking at an Indiana Jones style jacket before I settled on the flight jacket style.

I just wasn't sure what the extra cost was for with some makers. So the difference would mainly be for the hides used?

The central gist of what you are saying is: What is good value? Is paying, for a must have label, good value? It's in the eye of the beholder.

When a car that I had back in the late 1990's went in for a service, the service manager leant me his car for the day. My car then was the Volkswagen Passat. The car the service manager drove was an Audi A4. On returning his car I mentioned that the two vehicles were all but identical. He did say that they came from the same stable, adding: "You see those four little circles on the grill of my car? They cost a thousand pounds apiece." Implying that Audi could charge more because it carried extra status.

You pay your money and you take your choice. However, I do try to be ethical about such purchases. If it's significantly cheaper, I will always ask. Was it made in a country that turns a blind eye to child labour?

 

[Jeff M]

...
Reading some of the threads on this board, Johnson and Langlitz etc all seemed to have impeccable customerservice, excellent leather and make sure to get the fit right. i.e. they all seem to be in the highest tier. So would that leave the workman ship and leather they use as reasons the prices are cheaper than Aero?

Both Johnson's and Langlitz were great to deal with.
Re; their leather...


I have not seen all of the leathers that Langlitz offers, just that used on my jacket.
From posts here on the forum, I get the impression that that is the general style of leather they tend to offer.
I have seen many of those that Johnson's offers...at least as of 6 months ago.
Different makers chose their leather for different purposes. Langlitz for protection from a motorcycle spill.
Many of Johnson's leathers fulfill the same purpose. They also seem to have more of a "fashion" selection.

Those reasons are different from what somebody aiming to make a good repro. A2 or G1 has.
Of all the reproduction A2's I have ever owned (somewhere around 20-25 I believe) my least favorite leather is that used on my Aero A2.
That being said I consider that leather MUCH better than the leathers I've seen at Johnson's and far and away would chose it over the leather on my Langlitz for an A2. Not even close.

What with marketing these days, it can be hard to pick the "wheat from the chaff" if you are not familiar with the different makers. That's where coming to a site like this can be helpful. Those makers that proclaim the excellence of their jackets the loudest are not necessarily those actually making the best jackets. In fact....most of the top end flight jacket reproduction manufacturers don't seem to actively market much..if at all... on the forums.

Re; reason for differences in price....for the most part when it comes to the reproduction market, it has to do with the skill of the jacket maker in design, production, leather selection and how the market values their product. ie, supply and demand.

Good Wear Leather is basically a one man operation. John has spent years taking apart and studying vintage flight jackets, perfecting his skills at making them, spends a lot of time searching out high end leathers that aim to match that used back in the 1940's. His prices have risen steadily over the years as his work has become known to those who collect / appreciate quality and accuracy.

Eastman is a similar story...though a bit larger operation.

Aero is larger still.....more diverse offerings with many "civilian" designs.

Superior Flight Apparel is a one man shop in it's "childhood", been producing for around 6 years I believe.

I look for quality of workmanship (this includes fit), leather quality, "mojo" (generally relates to accuracy of reproduction), and customer service when it comes to my reproductions. All the above makers have met those marks for me over the years.

I have not seen a Gibson and Barnes A2 up close (I own one of their "Indy" jackets), so can't comment on them. I do know they were great to deal with, have a good reputation. I'd be interested in seeing one up close.

Re; Langlitz leather...here is a recent thread discussing Langlitz vs Aero jackets;

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?74620-Showdown-Review-Aero-Custom-vs-Langlitz-Custom

Some noted a "plasticky" feel to their Langlitz leather. I would describe mine the same
One poster had some good comments re; how Langlitz selects their leather;

"I had a long talk with Scott at Langlitz about their leather options and his explanation was that they are very picky about the finish, thickness, and texture of their leather for durability when you eventually end up on the pavement with their jacket on. Langlitz want's strong, uniform leather so it doesn't tear apart unexpectedly in a crash. The durability of their jackets seems to suggest that they are meeting this goal since you'll see 20-30 year old Langlitz jackets on ebay and they still look amazing in most cases. Their older goatskin jackets look new forever and Langlitz suggests they offer approximately the same level of durability as the mid-weight cowhide they use in a leather meets pavement situation. I purchased a 19 year old goatskin Langlitz at a thrift store and it looks as new as my 2010 model, for example. I prefer they would be willing to source leathers for non-motorcycle applications so there was a little more variety available. This jacket, Langlitz Cascade, would be amazing in any color of Horween's CXL. "

Again, Langlitz isn't selecting leather to make reproduction flight jackets. They are selecting it to provide maximal protection during a motorcycle spill.

Lastly....photos can be very deceiving. A cheaply made "sweat shop" A2 made with "mall quality" leather can look fantastic in photos.
Do what you are doing. Ask around. Read jacket reviews on forums like this and The Vintage Leather Jacket Forum ;

http://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/index.php

 

[Crinkle]

This is the flight jacket from Johnson I was interested in - http://www.johnsonleather.com/m-120.htm

My issue here is that when researching and coming across threads on this forum Johnson Leathers get nothing but the highest praise. Leather, look, fit, customer service, everything is praised highly and seem to be on par (as far as positive feedback) with Aero or the other more expensive makers.

Yet the price is less than half of that of Aero, and still a lot less than the one from Langlitz.

So with those 3 jackets, if fit or customer service or workmanship or lining etc is not in question then it comes down to the leathers and perhaps historical authenticity?

If it's something else, what would it be? It's a pretty huge price difference, so I do wonder what I might be missing.



Jeff - Wow, thank you. Really appreciate your detailed reply!

When you say you prefer the leather on your Aero...could you say why? Is it the look, the feel, or in general it's just clear that it's of a higher quality?

I'm going to look into the makers you mentioned, but at the moment I'm still interested in peoples opinions of Johnson/Langlitz/Aero just because these are the makers I've talked to and read a lot about..and I think it will be useful to get an understanding on the differences.

The Langlitz vs Aero thread is interesting...the main issue seemed to be with fit, something I would have to make sure to get right anyhow.

The fact that they choose their leathers for protection isn't a plus or a minus for me, anymore than Aero choosing their leathers for accuracy. I don't have a preference at this stage. I really only care about appearance, feel and general quality of the jacket.

Seems like I have a lot more research to do with these companies you've tolve me about. Cheers!

 

[Jeff M]

This is the flight jacket from Johnson I was interested in - http://www.johnsonleather.com/m-120.htm

My issue here is that when researching and coming across threads on this forum Johnson Leathers get nothing but the highest praise. Leather, look, fit, customer service, everything is praised highly and seem to be on par (as far as positive feedback) with Aero or the other more expensive makers.

Yet the price is less than half of that of Aero, and still a lot less than the one from Langlitz.

So with those 3 jackets, if fit or customer service or workmanship or lining etc is not in question then it comes down to the leathers and perhaps historical authenticity?

If it's something else, what would it be? It's a pretty huge price difference, so I do wonder what I might be missing.



Jeff - Wow, thank you. Really appreciate your detailed reply!

When you say you prefer the leather on your Aero...could you say why? Is it the look, the feel, or in general it's just clear that it's of a higher quality?

I'm going to look into the makers you mentioned, but at the moment I'm still interested in peoples opinions of Johnson/Langlitz/Aero just because these are the makers I've talked to and read a lot about..and I think it will be useful to get an understanding on the differences.

The Langlitz vs Aero thread is interesting...the main issue seemed to be with fit, something I would have to make sure to get right anyhow.

The fact that they choose their leathers for protection isn't a plus or a minus for me, anymore than Aero choosing their leathers for accuracy. I don't have a preference at this stage. I really only care about appearance, feel and general quality of the jacket.

Seems like I have a lot more research to do with these companies you've tolve me about. Cheers!

Johnson's is local for me. Been there several times. I have a custom made horse hide half belt from them.
I would not choose them to make an A2 or G1 for me. I would choose one of the other makers I have mentioned.
The most notable thing...their leather is not what I would choose for an A2 or G1. I leathers that are less stiff with more grain/character.
Look at some photos of the photos folks have posted here of their Good Wears. Even new, Good Wear leathers have a soft, aged look to them. You can feel this when you wear them.
Compare those to the photos of the Langlitz and Johnson's you have links to, which to my eye have a stiff, grainless "plasticky" look to them. Both Langlitz and Johnson' Leathers have high quality leathers...just not what I look for on an A2 or G1.

Here is one example of a Good Wear leather;

Beautiful graining. My guess would be the leather is very soft and pliable.
Some leathers do that well. Others don't
Unless you have actually had the chance to see/try on different styles of leather, it can be hard to understand just how different different leathers can be.