thunderw21
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Interesting jacket, definitely has a 20s look to my eyes.
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Show off the sports coats.
- Thread starter Matt Deckard
- Start date
@Baron Kurtz
It sure is tricky - as some details of the Paddock are remniscient of earlier years, but the shoulders and lapels look rather 30's to me.
Also the chest appears to have a bit of "fullness" that I would not expect on a snugger 10's-20's coat..
The Paddock (and I am convinced this is one, as all the details match this) had its heyday during the mid to late 30's.
According to Eelking (the German menswear authority of the 1930-60's who wrote a lexicon of menswear, though he was not always 100% accurate),
the "Paddock" entered Germany in 1938 under the name "Turfsakko". So it would have appeared in Britain some years earlier.
The link guttersnipe posted suggests that the Paddock appeared as early as 1925 - because of the photo of the young PoW/DoW... but I say that's not a Paddock on the Photo.
Just my 2 Pfennig.
It sure is tricky - as some details of the Paddock are remniscient of earlier years, but the shoulders and lapels look rather 30's to me.
Also the chest appears to have a bit of "fullness" that I would not expect on a snugger 10's-20's coat..
The Paddock (and I am convinced this is one, as all the details match this) had its heyday during the mid to late 30's.
According to Eelking (the German menswear authority of the 1930-60's who wrote a lexicon of menswear, though he was not always 100% accurate),
the "Paddock" entered Germany in 1938 under the name "Turfsakko". So it would have appeared in Britain some years earlier.
The link guttersnipe posted suggests that the Paddock appeared as early as 1925 - because of the photo of the young PoW/DoW... but I say that's not a Paddock on the Photo.
Just my 2 Pfennig.
herringbonekid
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i've never heard (two buttons that fasten) jackets referred to as 'paddock cut' in any vintage British catalogues / literature.
i don't see how this is any different from a standard two button:
it's worth noting that Mr. Purple's 1924 suit also has what looks at first glance like top-stitching (around the lapels / front edge) but is done by hand, and also has the extra wide facing.
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Baron Kurtz
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Yes, that facing is present as an recommended option in the 1898 CPG, but is gone by the 1930s cpgs that I've looked through. I also have no reference to "Paddock" being used in the UK. An American cutting book in 1908 is using Paddock to refer to a type of overcoat.
Fastuni - there is no fullness through the chest, I can tell you! This is trim cut to the waist, and quite a bit looser though the skirts. Also, its armholes are extremely small.
Fastuni - there is no fullness through the chest, I can tell you! This is trim cut to the waist, and quite a bit looser though the skirts. Also, its armholes are extremely small.
herringbonekid
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is it a perfect fit Baron ? a 35 S ?
Baron Kurtz
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Yes, my headless friend is exactly the same chest/shoulder size as me, though he needs to lose a little through the waist.
The fit is PERFECT.
The fit is PERFECT.
Qirrel
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Neither have I. I've only seen it used in older american texts, referring to an overcoat.
herringbonekid
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Q, what's your opinion on the date of Baron's jacket ?
Baron Kurtz
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Hmm, another photo I forgot to upload! The seams are sloped rearward; not crazily, but distinctly. There is very light shoulder padding, just enough to shape the shoulders smoothly. The sleevehead wadding is more significant than the shoulder pads.
I struggle with this paddock coat difference as well.
For instance, here's a photo of the Kennedy brothers. Supposedly JFK(right) is wearing a paddock coat. Maybe I'm blind but I see no difference between his jacket and his brothers
Qirrel
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I thought 20s when I first saw the pictures, but I'm unsure. The arm lining looked off at first, but that might not be significant, as it seems to have been relined at some point. The extended facing points to an earlier date.
AC Lyles said:
The buttons are slighly heightened at JFK's suit. But to me that is too subtle a difference to call it already a Paddock.
Here is an entry on 60's Paddocks with sketch: http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/?p=2556
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herringbonekid
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i'm going to take Fastuni's point that the high buttoning of BK's jacket is for riding rather than style. i had hoped that it was a British version of the high buttoning U.S. suits of the early 20s, but evidence of a UK version of this trend is still lacking (if anyone has evidence that there was an early 20s UK 'cult of youth' equivalent trend please post it).
the pick stitching and wide facing would suggest a 'safe bet' date of '24 -'26 going by the similarities to Mr. Purple's 1924 suit, however i wouldn't be surprised if this jacket was a bit later given that tailoring procedures in the UK changed so slowly during this period.
the pick stitching and wide facing would suggest a 'safe bet' date of '24 -'26 going by the similarities to Mr. Purple's 1924 suit, however i wouldn't be surprised if this jacket was a bit later given that tailoring procedures in the UK changed so slowly during this period.
Baron Kurtz
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hbk, this is certainly "equestrian styled". Whether or not it was actually used for riding is moot.
Quirrel, the lining of this is certainly unusual for British stuff of the day. The arms are lined in a heavy silk satin and the body in a rather more rugged plain weave silk (which is also used to create a hanger tab at the inside collar). Burn tests on both suggest silk. There's no evidence that it's been relined, however. The same thread is used for final felling in of the liners and collar, and for the decorative prick stitching.
Quirrel, the lining of this is certainly unusual for British stuff of the day. The arms are lined in a heavy silk satin and the body in a rather more rugged plain weave silk (which is also used to create a hanger tab at the inside collar). Burn tests on both suggest silk. There's no evidence that it's been relined, however. The same thread is used for final felling in of the liners and collar, and for the decorative prick stitching.
Baron Kurtz
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The very large pocket flaps are also strange. These would not be consistent with typical 30s aesthetics.
The jacket appears to all intents and purposes unworn, btw.
O! for a label or two.
The jacket appears to all intents and purposes unworn, btw.
O! for a label or two.
Baron Kurtz
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Triple post, for which I apologise.
Fastuni, does your German source use the word "Paddock"? This all sounds a bit 'internet tailoring jargon' to me. All a bit styleforum designations for my liking. I'm happy to be corrected, though. From what I'm reading, "Paddock" cut would apply to almost any sporting type jacket produced in the late Victorian era with two buttons. Is the "Paddock" definition restricted to 2-button jackets? If not, then let's say everything single breasted and sporty produced in the UK between about 1896 and 1917.
[EDIT]OK, I've found an original image, again American, from 1939 with text describing it as a Paddock suit.
Fastuni, does your German source use the word "Paddock"? This all sounds a bit 'internet tailoring jargon' to me. All a bit styleforum designations for my liking. I'm happy to be corrected, though. From what I'm reading, "Paddock" cut would apply to almost any sporting type jacket produced in the late Victorian era with two buttons. Is the "Paddock" definition restricted to 2-button jackets? If not, then let's say everything single breasted and sporty produced in the UK between about 1896 and 1917.
[EDIT]OK, I've found an original image, again American, from 1939 with text describing it as a Paddock suit.
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Yes, my source is Baron von Eelking's "Lexikon der Herrenmode" from 1962 and he names it as "Paddock" - but mentions that this is the "foreign" word - "Turfsakko" was the German term.
He describes the genuine "Paddock" or "Turfsakko" as a sportcoat or suit-jacket with two heightened buttons, vents, breast pocket flap and often slanted pockets and sleeve cuffs (but not a must).
According to him it appeared in Germany in 1938 and calls it suitable for the entire day, even with correct white shirt and stiff hat.
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Guttersnipe
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As I understand it, the defining characteristics of the paddock jacket is a high button stance cut so that the bottom button is worn closed.
As BK indicates, the term "paddock cut" is not modern "internet tailoring jargon." I too have seen contemporary references. BK are you referring to this Apparel Arts? Here is another (modern) discussion of paddock jackets.
I've always thought the name probably originated from (period) slag usages, similar to terms like "co-respondents" for two-tone shoes. Although, I recently learned from Marc Chevalier that the style of jacket shown below were sometimes called Scholte cut jackets, Frederick Scholte being a prominent tailor who made clothes for the Duke of Windsor when he was the Prince of Wales. From what MC tells me, the difference between a paddock and a Scholte jacket is the paddock's hacking pockets and side vents.
As BK indicates, the term "paddock cut" is not modern "internet tailoring jargon." I too have seen contemporary references. BK are you referring to this Apparel Arts? Here is another (modern) discussion of paddock jackets.
I've always thought the name probably originated from (period) slag usages, similar to terms like "co-respondents" for two-tone shoes. Although, I recently learned from Marc Chevalier that the style of jacket shown below were sometimes called Scholte cut jackets, Frederick Scholte being a prominent tailor who made clothes for the Duke of Windsor when he was the Prince of Wales. From what MC tells me, the difference between a paddock and a Scholte jacket is the paddock's hacking pockets and side vents.
Two Types
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When I first spotted this jacket on the rail my immediate thought was that it was early. It also screamed 'equestrian' at me. It was beside two other equestrian jackets: one was (by patent number and label style) late forties/early fifties. The other was almost exactly the same but the label suggested 1980s.
This jacket was an altogether different beast.
I can't claim any true expertise but I immediately felt the weight and thought 'summer weight riding jacket'. It's nowhere near the weight of other equestrian jackets. The relative lightweight also made me wonder whether it had been made for colonial use. Of course, I have no evidence to support this - it was simply my first thought.
Guttersnipe: Out of interest (since I have no experience of horse riding) why is a single vent better than double vents on an equestrian jacket?
P.S. I've seen BK wearing the jacket and it is a splendid fit and looks very, very good.
P.P.S. Slightly off subject, but I have to admit that whenever I read or hear about the Prince of Wales being such a leader of style, I switch off. I would be really interested to look more deeply into the subject and find out how much was real and how much was hype. And (politics alert!!) I just look at photos of him and think "horrible old Nazi" or "traitor"!
This jacket was an altogether different beast.
I can't claim any true expertise but I immediately felt the weight and thought 'summer weight riding jacket'. It's nowhere near the weight of other equestrian jackets. The relative lightweight also made me wonder whether it had been made for colonial use. Of course, I have no evidence to support this - it was simply my first thought.
Guttersnipe: Out of interest (since I have no experience of horse riding) why is a single vent better than double vents on an equestrian jacket?
P.S. I've seen BK wearing the jacket and it is a splendid fit and looks very, very good.
P.P.S. Slightly off subject, but I have to admit that whenever I read or hear about the Prince of Wales being such a leader of style, I switch off. I would be really interested to look more deeply into the subject and find out how much was real and how much was hype. And (politics alert!!) I just look at photos of him and think "horrible old Nazi" or "traitor"!
